[vorbis] Re: Please confirm your message
Christian HJ Wiesner
chris at wiesneronline.net
Fri Mar 14 01:17:40 PST 2003
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>Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 10:14:26 +0100
>From: Christian HJ Wiesner <chris at wiesneronline.net>
>Reply-To: chris at wiesneronline.net
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>To: ffmpeg-devel at lists.sourceforge.net, vorbis at xiph.org
>Cc: D Richard Felker III <dalias at aerifal.cx>,
> Steve Lhomme <steve.lhomme at free.fr>, Cyrius <suiryc at yahoo.com>,
> Moritz Bunkus <moritz at bunkus.org>, spyder at wiesneronline.net,
> Ludovic 'BlackSun' Vialle <blacksun at corecodec.com>,
> betaboy at corecodec.com
>Subject: Re: Ogg Vorbis tracks in QT files
>References: <1047571362.3e70aba2384fe at imp.free.fr>
> <Pine.LNX.4.50.0303131743110.6971-100000 at purple.cs.nott.ac.uk>
> <20030314060705.GB27429 at brightrain.aerifal.cx>
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>D Richard Felker III wrote:
>
>
>>On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 07:26:21PM +0000, Mark Hills wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>I tried to bind the 'OggS' 4CC to the vorbis codec in mov.c, but it
>>>>doesn't seem to like it... anyway, in QuickTime AFAIK the vorbis track
>>>>is embeded in an Ogg container... so we have those alternatives:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>The example you give from Cinerlerra is the only time I've ever seen
>>>Vorbis audio as a track in a .mov file. And if it's already put in an Ogg
>>>container, then I'd argue that that's not really the right way to go about
>>>things.
>>>
>>>
>>Cinelerra is total broken crap. This is NOT the proper way to put
>>vorbis audio in a movie. Instead, you should just put a raw vorbis
>>stream there for audio, no ogg nonsense. The ogg container format is
>>horrible enough by itself without trying to put it inside yet another
>>ugly container (quicktime).
>>
>>
>>
>>>The Ogg container provides sync and seeking to a set of packets,
>>>regardless of codec. I'm not familiar with .mov files, but presumably they
>>>provide similar features. You can encode and decode Vorbis audio without
>>>any need for the Ogg container if you're that way inclined. So I don't see
>>>why there's any need for Ogg to be involved in this case. Unless anyone
>>>could explain otherwise.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Because the author is a stupid and lame. Same reason why none of his
>>software compiles right from source... Speaking of which, he doesn't
>>understand the GPL since he makes you click a stupid "AGREE" thing
>>before downloading source.
>>
>>
>>
>>>On a separate note, what do people think of the idea of using the Ogg
>>>container to store Vorbis audio and some kind of libavcodec supported
>>>video format? Whether the xiph.org crew would approve until they get their
>>>Tarkin codec going, and whether MPlayer support or otherwise would follow
>>>is anyone's guess, but it seems like a reasonable idea. Thoughts?
>>>
>>>
>>It's been done and it works, but it's not good. The ogg container is
>>just a horrible design. Read all the mplayer-dev-eng archives
>>regarding "new container format"/MPCF for lots of discussion on the
>>matter. Soon the draft for our new spec will be complete and then we
>>can store (wonderful) vorbis audio without the (crappy) ogg container,
>>as standalone audio files or in movie files.
>>Rich
>>
>>
>
>Felker, whats your problem ? I can normally smell a wanker if i meet
>one, even in the internet. I have no idea why my sensors were failing on
>you in first instance, probably because you are hiding your stupid and
>immatured insulting behind technical argumentation. In the end you're
>nothing but a poor, socially handicapped person, unable for normal
>communication and hiding behind the anonymity of the internet. Somebody
>pay this guy a psychologist, he needs one desperately.
>
>You feel this mailing list is your 'private area' and you can insult
>people and their work here at will ? Well, this ML has a public archive
>accessible via HTTP, and everybody can subscribe to it and read your
>comments, so this thinking is complete BS.
>
>Core developer or not, i fail to understand how the other developers of
>both the FFMPEG and the mplayer projects can tolerate your behaviour.
>You are throwing mud on the projects you are contributing to when
>behaving like this, and that means their work is put into the dirt and
>miscredited also.
>
>I am copying this email to the Vorbis user list, and i sincerely hope
>some brave Xiph zealot people living in the States succeeds to find out
>your real life adress and has a word with you about the very necessary
>respect for Monty's work. We also had our doubts if Ogg is a good
>container design for video handling, thats why we started our project,
>but we will wait until Monty will present the final Ogg Theora specs
>before we make any comments, and for sure we would not even think of
>using a similar language as you are doing constantly. Its unfair to
>judge Ogg's capabilities from OGM, as this project admittedly was a
>quick hack IMHO, made from a 'stupid DirectShow kiddie' , to use your
>very own words, and thus very Windows centric.
>
>Its a pitty i wont be in the States before April, i really loved to be
>together with some Xiph people when they are talking to you,
>contributing some good old, handmade Bavarian arguments. You should
>learn, and hopefully soon, that it can be painful to insult other people
>and their work .... in a real life !!!!
>
>no regards
>
>Christian
>
>
>
>P.S. Explanation for Xiph people : He has been doing the very same with
> other projects on the mplayer-dev-eng ML, and repeatedly, most notably
>without even having understood the basics of the specs in most cases.
>Sorry for the ranting on a public mailing list, but enough is enough.
>
>P.P.S. And please, dont swob their new MPCF ( MPlayer Container Format )
>with our old MCF project, they have nothing in common and its mere
>coincidence that both sound similar.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> Re: Ogg Vorbis tracks in QT files
> From:
> Christian HJ Wiesner <chris at wiesneronline.net>
> Date:
> Fri, 14 Mar 2003 10:14:26 +0100
> To:
> ffmpeg-devel at lists.sourceforge.net, vorbis at xiph.org
>
>
> D Richard Felker III wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Mar 13, 2003 at 07:26:21PM +0000, Mark Hills wrote:
>>
>>>> I tried to bind the 'OggS' 4CC to the vorbis codec in mov.c, but it
>>>> doesn't seem to like it... anyway, in QuickTime AFAIK the vorbis track
>>>> is embeded in an Ogg container... so we have those alternatives:
>>>
>>> The example you give from Cinerlerra is the only time I've ever seen
>>> Vorbis audio as a track in a .mov file. And if it's already put in
>>> an Ogg
>>> container, then I'd argue that that's not really the right way to go
>>> about
>>> things.
>>
>>
>> Cinelerra is total broken crap. This is NOT the proper way to put
>> vorbis audio in a movie. Instead, you should just put a raw vorbis
>> stream there for audio, no ogg nonsense. The ogg container format is
>> horrible enough by itself without trying to put it inside yet another
>> ugly container (quicktime).
>>
>>> The Ogg container provides sync and seeking to a set of packets,
>>> regardless of codec. I'm not familiar with .mov files, but
>>> presumably they
>>> provide similar features. You can encode and decode Vorbis audio
>>> without
>>> any need for the Ogg container if you're that way inclined. So I
>>> don't see
>>> why there's any need for Ogg to be involved in this case. Unless anyone
>>> could explain otherwise.
>>
>>
>> Because the author is a stupid and lame. Same reason why none of his
>> software compiles right from source... Speaking of which, he doesn't
>> understand the GPL since he makes you click a stupid "AGREE" thing
>> before downloading source.
>>
>>> On a separate note, what do people think of the idea of using the Ogg
>>> container to store Vorbis audio and some kind of libavcodec supported
>>> video format? Whether the xiph.org crew would approve until they get
>>> their
>>> Tarkin codec going, and whether MPlayer support or otherwise would
>>> follow
>>> is anyone's guess, but it seems like a reasonable idea. Thoughts?
>>
>>
>> It's been done and it works, but it's not good. The ogg container is
>> just a horrible design. Read all the mplayer-dev-eng archives
>> regarding "new container format"/MPCF for lots of discussion on the
>> matter. Soon the draft for our new spec will be complete and then we
>> can store (wonderful) vorbis audio without the (crappy) ogg container,
>> as standalone audio files or in movie files.
>> Rich
>
>
> Felker, whats your problem ? I can normally smell a wanker if i meet
> one, even in the internet. I have no idea why my sensors were failing on
> you in first instance, probably because you are hiding your stupid and
> immatured insulting behind technical argumentation. In the end you're
> nothing but a poor, socially handicapped person, unable for normal
> communication and hiding behind the anonymity of the internet.
> Somebody pay this guy a psychologist, he needs one desperately.
>
> You feel this mailing list is your 'private area' and you can insult
> people and their work here at will ? Well, this ML has a public archive
> accessible via HTTP, and everybody can subscribe to it and read your
> comments, so this thinking is complete BS.
>
> Core developer or not, i fail to understand how the other developers of
> both the FFMPEG and the mplayer projects can tolerate your behaviour.
> You are throwing mud on the projects you are contributing to when
> behaving like this, and that means their work is put into the dirt and
> miscredited also.
>
> I am copying this email to the Vorbis user list, and i sincerely hope
> some brave Xiph zealot people living in the States succeeds to find
> out your real life adress and has a word with you about the very
> necessary
> respect for Monty's work. We also had our doubts if Ogg is a good
> container design for video handling, thats why we started our project,
> but we will wait until Monty will present the final Ogg Theora specs
> before we make any comments, and for sure we would not even think of
> using a similar language as you are doing constantly. Its unfair to
> judge Ogg's capabilities from OGM, as this project admittedly was a
> quick hack IMHO, made from a 'stupid DirectShow kiddie' , to use your
> very own words, and thus very Windows centric.
>
> Its a pitty i wont be in the States before April, i really loved to be
> together with some Xiph people when they are talking to you,
> contributing some good old, handmade Bavarian arguments. You should
> learn, and hopefully soon, that it can be painful to insult other
> people and their work .... in a real life !!!!
>
> no regards
>
> Christian
>
>
>
> P.S. Explanation for Xiph people : He has been doing the very same
> with other projects on the mplayer-dev-eng ML, and repeatedly, most
> notably without even having understood the basics of the specs in most
> cases. Sorry for the ranting on a public mailing list, but enough is
> enough.
>
> P.P.S. And please, dont swob their new MPCF ( MPlayer Container Format
> ) with our old MCF project, they have nothing in common and its mere
> coincidence that both sound similar.
>
--- >8 ----
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