[Vorbis] .ogg extension and Theora

[Stephen So]

<008f01c4572e$2bd9e970$67389c3f at computername>
Message-ID: <40D66375.3070106 at griffith.edu.au>

vorbis-bounces at xiph.org wrote:

> True.
>
> But the Xiph developers are avid Linux users.  Windows problems aren't a
> major concern for them.
>
>

Xiph doesn't have to write it but they can always outsource and/or
endorse it, like they did with OggDrop (though OggDrop has disappeared
from the pages of vorbis.com these days)

> If it doesn't even solve most of the problems, then why bother
> proposing it?
>
> (That's basically what Xiph is doing.)
>
>

So we don't have the right to propose ideas which address the problem of
organising ogg files on a PC?  I would think that it is better than not
solving a single problem with the single extension setup and everyone
spending time debating about why it should be changed.

> I knew that. But users aren't going to do that. A very very large number
>
> will resist.  Or not understand why they should even bother.  Or just
> give
> up on .ogg entirely since they don't have to do that for .mp3, .mpg,
> .wma,
> or .wmv.
>
> The only way to get that ability to even be vaguely common is to get
> the OS
> makers to do that.
>
>

I think it a readily apparent to average users that Windows explorer is
only efficient for searching files rather than media.  Otherwise, we
wouldn't have players like WMP having their own media library.   I agree
that wma and wmv have the advantage of a company that makes the OS as
well and packages it together in a one-click-setup.  But Apple faced a
similar problem with their m4a  extension and iTunes (not packaged with
Windows), yet they still could manage. :)

> <>
> They only have to read a small header for mp3. And they store that in a
>
> cache.
>
> That wont help if all the files are on a removable media or such.  In
> which
> case it can take quite a while.
>
>
>
>> tags.  It is not such a big deal reading the header of an Ogg file and
>> seeing what type of streams are inside.  Ogginfo does it, VorbisExt does
>> it too and they read Vorbis comments as well.
>>
>
>
> It does take time.
>
> And for Ogg, you have to read the whole file, not just the header.  You
> gotta make sure that there is absolutely no content anywhere in the file
> that your other player can't handle.
>
>

So there are ogg headers for each logical stream (audio, video) that may
appear anywhere in the ogg file, sort of like it was made by
concatenating two ogg files together?  hmm.....that certainly doesn't
help then.  I was under the impression that an ogg file with say two
logical streams (for Vorbis and Theora) would have this info in the one
header at the start of the file, that would contain all the information
relevant for each stream, such as version, vendor, etc.

>
>
>
>> That is moot point.  Bugs exists in all software.  And they all can
>> crash and lock up our systems, so  I don't see why we don't use this
>> excuse to quit using every complex program (or OS) because it is not
>> elegant enough.
>>
>
>
> KISS principle.  "Keep it simple, stupid."
>
> You don't integrate anything into the OS you don't have to.
>
> Otherwise you end up with a Microsoft kind of situation where even minor
> bugs can cause major problems.
>
>

I never suggested it had to be integrated into the OS.  I think
Microsoft is the only company that is paranoid about integrating
everything into their OS.  It can be just a separate program with an
icon on the desktop.  Let's call it OggTunes or OggNavigator or
something so there is no confusion about integration (Explorer programs
tend to be integrated over time I guess :)

> <>
> It's not whether they *can* but whether they want to.
>
> Most users don't like being forced to do something first, just to do
> something simple later. Like installing a major OS component just to be
> able to click on audio file and have their music player come up.



Some setup will be needed on their part though.  I mean, after a fresh
install of Windows XP, I don't think double clicking ogg (or oga, ogv,
ogm) files does anything useful. :)   In which case, the user will say
to themselves, "I need to get a tool to open and organise these files".