[vorbis] Format comparison

[Jack Moffitt]

> Anyway, are you seriously arguing that continuous mix CDs are something
> the average listener is into? I think not. Can you name even one
> continuous mix electronica album that has ever even gone gold, much less
> platinum? The only platinum-class electronica artist I can think of is
> Moby, and he's dismissed as pop music by a lot of serious electronica
> fans. And he doesn't do continuous mixes anyway.

Are you seriously arguing about sales in the US?  Of course there are no
continuous mix cds that are platinum, because all that we get shoved
down our throat is brittney spears.  Come on.  

I think I do have a Moby album that's continuous from his early days.
You forgot about Fatboy Slim, who does do lots of continuous mixes,
since he is a well known DJ.  And just because the american's have no
electronic mainstream music, that doesn't mean the europe doesn't.

In any case, I said, this is a problem that will get more and more
common.  You can see this by the sheer fact that there are workaround
solutions for MP3s to do this.

> To look at it another way (perhaps a more relevant one), have you ever
> searched for Paul Oakenfold or Sasha+Digweed stuff on Napster or
> Gnutella (even back when Napster was a big deal)? I have. Usually
> there's nothing. Sometimes you find somebody who has an album. I've had
> better luck looking for cult pop acts from twenty or thirty years ago,
> to say nothing of the top classic-rock songs or current hits.

I found plenty of electronic music on napster in it's heyday the few
times I used it.

> Again, I like Vorbis and I want it to succeed, but I don't see much
> point in kidding ourselves about all the imaginary great reasons that
> the general public should want to switch. 

Smaller size, better quality, higher quality streaming stations, more
compatibility than other formats, and it's a new thing.  All of these
things are valuable.  All of these things combined are very valuable.

The consumer is satisfied with the currently status quo, but more and
more are becoming less satisfied.

The reason we never pushed vorbis hard to consumers before now is
because the arguments were much stronger at the content production,
artists, and technology software ends.  Those arguments are very very
strong.  And if there's music and software for vorbis, what the fuck
does the average consumer care anyway?  It's not like they "care" about
mp3.  They listen to whatever comes down their pipe.  Those people who
"care" probably care enough that vorbis is fairly attractive.

> The major issue is patents,
> and as long as the average listener isn't being asked to pay for it, he
> won't care about that. 

You don't think they are paying for it? :)

> The quality issue is distinctly secondary,
> especially, as I said, for the average listener with his abysmal PC
> sound hardware. I've known a number of people who are quite happy
> ripping their CDs with RealPlayer at 96k. As long as they can keep doing
> that for free, how can you take seriously the notion that these people
> will perceive that Vorbis has anything to offer them, sonically or
> otherwise?

Because they can't share their realaudio with all their friends or play
it in cars.  Granted, vorbis can't do 100% of all that now, but at least
it _can_.  RealAudio is likely never to make it out of RealSystem.

Remember, people are pushing subscription services and the nirvana
people seem to be trying to reach is the Celestial Jukebox.  Now,
there's a very compelling argument to provide and CJ, and there's a
compelling argument to use Vorbis in a CJ.  

The whoel entire point of teh Xiph.org collection of media projects is
to make the world a place where users don't have to care about formats
and codecs and blah blah blah.  It should just work.  And it just works
with vorbis.

> By all means, continue beating the drums for Vorbis' superior quality
> and freedom from patents. You're right, and eventually I hope you will
> win out. I'll continue to do the same whenever I hear friends or
> co-workers talking about MP3, RealAudio, WMA, or whatever else. But
> let's not kid ourselves -- it's an uphill battle just to get most people
> to consider Vorbis.

It won't always be.  We've made significant progress.

Vorbis couldn't be just Free.  And it couldn't be just Better.  It had
to be both, and Monty and I have said this many times.

Firstly, Free, secondly, better.

But it does offer value to consumers, even if a good chunk of it is
indirect.

jack.

--- >8 ----
List archives:  http://www.xiph.org/archives/
Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/
To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'vorbis-request at xiph.org'
containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body.  No subject is needed.
Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.