[vorbis] (Classical) Request for Standardization of expanded TAGS

[Jonathan Walther]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 03:22:06PM +0200, Beni Cherniavksy wrote:
>I second (fifteenth? :) many people that say PERFORMER / ENSEBMLE
>separation is problematic.  I don't know how to use it _usefully_ with

I said it in email; maybe I should say it in the proposal.  ENSEMBLE is
for people that want to use it.  Other people can use PERFORMER as they
use ARTIST.

>A related question on this: I have many songs by two ensembles (one duo,
>one trio) that kept changed their composition (one man left, another one
>got in) but kept the name and style.  So I usually want to just write the
>band name, e.g. when searching for songs by them but I sometimes I want to
>know who exactly it was.  Should I indicate this in the ENSEMBLE or by
>adding the PERFORMER that made the difference?  The later seems better but
>is ambigous to someone not knowing these detail well: when you see both
>ENSEMBLE and PERFORMER, does it mean that it's an additional performer or
>a part of this ensemble that the tagger decided to specifically note?

Ah.  Finally, a good example.  In such a case, the ENSEMBLE/PERFORMER
distinction makes a big difference.  A performer can be a soloist that
just happens to be with a group, but a performer can also be a member of
the group who is noteworthy on his own.  For instance, the first violin
of a symhony orchestra might be singled out for mention on the cover of
a CD.  By analogy, you could put the groups name in ENSEMBLE, and the
names of both performers in their own PERFORMER tags.  In my mind, the
ENSEMBLE tag is the "important" tag, and PERFORMER secondary.

>I also strongly dislike the "Any attempt to use the ARTIST tag must be an
>extreme nuisance for the user of the program" statement!  I would like to

You noticed the extreme nuisance was only in the creating of oggs,
right?  Once they're out there, you won't get any hastle.

Your suggestions below are good; they are what I meant by nuisance.
Design the UI to encourage use of standard tags first, but allow artist
tags after some struggle.  Was this not clear from the proposal?

>see a copy of this proposal distributed along with the different tagging
>tools, and availiable by a single click on a "Recommended tags" button in
>the tagging dialog.  Also provide simple means to use this tags but don't
>do anything negative.  I like very much to catalogue my music but I myself
>will use ARTIST sometimes (when I don't know more information).  I don't
>want to be told by programs "That's deprecated, if you do it more than
>twice a week I will remind you again, then if you don't get the point I
>will delete all files with ARTIST tags from your hard disk so that you
>learn to tag correctly..."  Of course I exaggerated but _I know what I do
>when I use ARTIST_.  And people who don't won't learn from punishment,
>they will only become angry.
>
>Here is a way to make people avoid ARTIST by positive rather than negative
>means: in the tagging GUI, near every artist field, show a radio list of
>PERFORMER, COMPOSER, AUTHOR, etc... that when selected mutates the ARTIST
>into that tag.  It's a good idea for some other places too, to lower the
>energy barrier of being more specific.

Thanks.

Jonathan

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: part
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 797 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/vorbis/attachments/20011212/a399e464/part-0001.pgp