jack at atosc.org
Wed May 16 08:14:19 PDT 2007
On Wed, 16 May 2007, Jean-Marc Valin wrote:
>>> The main idea is that Speex supports many bit-rates, but for one reason
>>> or another, some modes may be left out in implementations (e.g. for RAM
>>> or network reasons). What we're saying here is that you should make an
>>> effoft to at least support (and offer) the 8 kbps mode to maximise
>> I understood this. But as you may know: the SDP parameters are PROPOSAL
>> only and a remote application might use another "mode": this typically
>> lead to interoperability issue and you should advise in the specification
>> to always support all "modes". I understand this can be seen as a
>> limitation, but in real world, it will not be acceptable to support
>> only a few mode among the provided ones.
> Consider a device that only has enough ROM to store one set of
> quantization tables (the limitation could also be about speed, network,
> ...). If you specify MUST be able to decode, then it means that this
> device simply *cannot* implement the spec *at all*. This is bad for
For me: device which don't have all mode implemented are already banned:
the SDP offer/answer model is based on codec and parameter *proposal*:
still the sender is *allowed* to not send the given mode. That said, UA
that don't support all modes are already not capable of interoperability:
they will receive sometimes modes that they do not proposed and do not
One possible way would be to use "mode=any" to clearly indicate that the
UA support any modes. The prefered mode could be specified by order of
preference: "mode=5;mode=any". Other "limited device" would
announce all modes supported: "mode=5;mode=3;mode=1"
Samples for SDP negotiation must clearly indicates this behaviour:
m=audio 8088 RTP/AVP 97
-> equivalent to "mode=any" (for smooth evolution of current
m=audio 8088 RTP/AVP 97
-> ONLY mode=3 is supported. (LIMITED DEVICE)
m=audio 8088 RTP/AVP 97
a=fmtp:97 mode=3;mode=1 (LIMITED DEVICE)
-> mode=3 and mode=1 are supported, mode=3 is prefered.
m=audio 8088 RTP/AVP 97
-> ALL modes are supported but mode=4 is prefered.
The above would make sense and compliant application would
be interoperable? right?
That would be perfect for me, and I guess would be fine for you?
>> I understand that speex needs multiple 20ms packets: for speex
>> "packetisation interval MUST be a multiple of 20ms", but you have
>> to provide a specification compliant with other ones: "ptime" can
>> have any other value and there can't be a MUST there.
>> Round it up is a much better idea: usually, 30ms is used when
>> 20ms would introduce too much bandwidth overhead: if you round
>> it down, then you would get less quality.
> Fair enough.
>> Some application "allocate" a buffer based on the "ptime": thus
>> they copy 20ms of PCMU data each time they get a packet even
>> if they receive packets each 30ms...
>> The sound cards play 2/3 of data received... This happen more
>> than you would imagine. Look at this implementation of current
>> iLBC in asterisk:
> Oh, I've seen a lot worse... like calling speex_encode() with 640 u-law
> samples instead of 160 floats (hey, it's the same number of bytes) to
> get 4x more compression! Though in this case, no IETF draft can save you :-)
>>>> Also, this table exists for narrowband, but still it does not for
>>>> wideband or ultrawideband: it would be nice to get also those ones. I
>>>> was really lost implementing this in my SIP application.
>>> Yes, I just checked that in into svn. Will be part of the 1.2beta2
>>> manual (expected soon).
>> And will you add thoses tables in the draft?
> Hadn't thought about it, but why not. Wouldn't take too much space and
> it would make things simpler.
Good. This will allow implementors to not always ask you what is a "mode"!
>>> Well, the idea is what happens if all modes can't be supported for some
>>> reason. This is why we were saying 8 kbps (mode 3) SHOULD be supported.
>>> In practice, we can also strongly recommend supporting all modes, but
>>> I'm not sure I want to say MUST for that.
>> I guess you already have my idea about this: all modes should be supported
>> unless you know you won't have issue.
>> On good thing with g729 and its extension (g729 annexe b?) is that you
>> can still
>> receive g729b if you support only g729: this is transparent (as far as I
>> understood it).
>> For speex, the modes are not transparent and thus, If I was the one
>> to choose, I would add in the draft: ALL MODES MUST BE SUPPORTED ON
>> THE RECEIVER SIDE. That's experience of real world.
> As I said, it's not possible unless you explicitly exclude some devices
> from being able to implement this. However, I'm not against saying
> something to the effect that if the client/device is physically capable
> of encoding/decoding a mode, then it MUST do it -- or something like
> that. Again, I'm open to any suggestion that doesn't involve banning
> certain devices outright.
I guess what I proposed might reach a consensus between you and me, at
> Another thing to consider. Even if I'm able to everything and all, if
> I'm on a 33.6 modem link and you attempt to send me 24.6 kbps with a
> ptime of 20 ms, it won't work, no matter what and the client might as
> well try something else (even if that something else is LPC10!).
This is one reason why ptime should be round up! Anyway, if a mode
is not supported for network reason, the application that supports
any more should propose a fmtp line: (acting like a limited device)
>> The other way would be to make it transparent like g279.
> Not sure what kind of transparence you mean? The Speex decoder (unless
> you remove some tables) is able to decode anything without even knowing
> how it was encoded.
Except for limited device which are not capable of decoding the "mode"
that were removed from code ;)
If I understood well the speex stuff: a decoder without wideband
implementation would be capable of locating the narrowband part
of the speex bitstream and return at least narrowband in audio? right?
Is this possible? (I guess it's not that complex):
--->wideband data --> NARROW BAND DECODER --> narrow band decoded audio!
This does not seems possible:
--->mode=4 nband data --> LIMITED DEVICE ---> correct nband data
WITH MODE=3 ONLY
With g729 / g729 annex b
---> g729 annex b --> LIMITED DEVICE ---> correct audio data.
WITHOUT ANNEX B
This is what I mean with "transparence".
> If all you mean is "do your best to decode anything you get no matter
> how different it is from what you asked for", then I agree.
This has to be at least of recommendation so people are aware that speex
implementation allow this behavior: it was unclear to people that they
don't need to set option before starting decode process. Because they
get a lot of decode failure before, I think speex users are more prepared
now. Anyway, it's good to inform people.
Sometimes, draft are providing some C code: I would love to see some kind
of annex with a sample routine to decode speex data.
Something like: static void dec_process(MSFilter *f)
I'm not sure of my implementation (mainly I have a
strange behavior of "speex_bits_remaining"...)
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