No, I don't think so. Was: [vorbis] Vorbis 1.0 binary - Beta4 still the best?

[Monty]

On Fri, Jul 12, 2002 at 10:02:23PM +0200, Zvezdan Dimitrijevic wrote:
> >> Zvezdan... forgive me for being blunt, but you're on crack.  b4
> 
> I don't really want to start flame about different version of any audio
> codec, especially about Vorbis. I already said that I like this format
> and I wish its success. I didn't have any decision to inconsiderable
> your work, because I think that you are doing a great job, much better
> than Fraunhofer along with RCA, Dolby and others. My intention was only
> to point out to some weeknes of current version.

Nor did I mean to flame.  I merely wanted to point out that the
'weakness' is most likely an issue of preference.

There are folks out there that swear up and down that WMA sounds
better, even when I demonstrate with a spec analyzer that it's
lowpassing at 10kHz.  I'm not calling the other person a *liar*.  I'm
sure they honestly like it better.  But if they tell me the highs are
better/brighter/clearer (when I can demonstrate there are no highs at
all), it leaves me doubting their explanation/description.

I'm not calling you one of those people, but I am saying that your
preference of beta 4 is subjective, and the explanation you offered
didn't jive.  I believe your preference.  I'd like to nail down what
the explanation actually is.

> I want to believe to your technical explanation, because you are author
> of this codec, and you sure know about what you are talking. But,
> unfortunately my ears tells me different. I did very much blind tests,
> and I played alternatively original and compressed songs with different
> bitrates (qualities). Songs encoded with the Beta4 I can hardly
> differentiate from the original song (on bitrate mentioned in my last
> message). But, every song compressed with the RC2, RC3 and now with v1.0
> I can recognize that it is different than original. 

Most people, in ABX tests, latch onto something very specific to
identify a difference.  What are you listening for in 1.0 that you
don't hear in b4?  Are you sure you're comparing latest/greatest here?
(Can I see a file you're generating for 1.0?  Specifically I want to
know that the vedor tags are).

(BTW, when one can latch onto something very specific, like the roving
lowpass of WMA, the test ceases to be blind.  I'm very good at
identifying specific codecs and specific codec versions in 'blind'
tests, which somewhat defeates the purpose of the test being blind.
Blind tests are mostly useful on untrained listeners, or to demonstrate
that two samples are impossible to distinguish.  If the samples are
easily distinguished and the listener is trained, blind testing is
useless to reliably determine preference).

> Maybe I should say that I am not a beginner. I have a long experience
> with audio technology, analog and now digital, and I have very good
> audio equipment.

The end of my previous message was not directed at you.  It is a
general fear I have of giving people lots of switches to play with
when, overall, the codec does a near-optimal job setting itself up
already.  The majority of the switch usage could only damage things,
and some people will insist on doing so.

> I had audio turntable and after that I have had many
> CD players, long time ago before many others in this forum. Also,
> probably I was a contact with the computer audio compression before many
> others here. And besides my ages, trust me that I have very good
> hearing. I don't know, maybe you are all right, but currently I stay
> with Beta4 version.

You're welcome to do so; no one will come take it away.

> Btw, sorry for my bad English, it is not my natural language. 

I believe the majority of list subscribers here don't speak English
natively.  Don't let it bother you.

Monty

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