[vorbis] Why is Vorbis development slow?

[Carsten Haese]

SwiftBiscuit wrote:
> 
> Thanks for replying Carsten, I wasn't sure anyone
> would!

You're welcome.

> --- Carsten Haese <carsten at uniqsys.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 12:24, SwiftBiscuit wrote:
> > > Assuming that you think Vorbis could have
> > > developed faster than it has done in the
> > > past year, what in your opinion has been
> > > holding it back and what remedies do
> > > you suggest?
> >
> > It was mostly held back by Monty working on
> > Theora and portable Vorbis playback.
> So I understand, and that was important work but
> that's not the real answer.
> 
> > That no-one other than Monty has the detailed
> > knowledge it takes to make major improvements
> > to Vorbis is unfortunate,
> This is the real answer.
> 
> > but it's nothing that Xiph can change directly.
> But if Xiph can't change that, who can?

Nobody can. Either third party contrbutions come in or not. Xiph can't make them
happen.
 
> > The source code is out in the open, and I
> > find it sufficiently clear to follow.
> *rest snipped*
> 
> So you are basically saying that things are fine as
> they are, the tools are there for people to use but
> they just aren't putting the effort in?

Don't put words in my mouth just so you can disagree with me. I said it's
unfortunate that things are how they are, I'm not sure how you get "fine" from
that. I was simply trying to demonstrate that a detailed tuning manual is
neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for third-party contributions.

> Well I don't think that things are fine how they are,
> I think the results prove that. Over the past year
> Vorbis had made very little progress with tuning. AAC
> has caught it up and the momentum is with that now,
> I'd say that Vorbis' money generating potential is
> flowing away from it each time AAC beats it in a
> listening test.

If listening tests were to dictate what people use, nobody would be using MP3
anymore. True, HE-AAC beat Vorbis in a listening test, but that doesn't mean
I'll stop using Vorbis now. My Neuros plays Ogg Vorbis, not HE-AAC. 

> Without the money to pay for more developers, it's
> down to Monty again and the last year has shown that
> to not be enough. Xiph needs to get more enthusiasts
> to get involved and saying that the tools are there
> but people aren?t trying hard enough just doesn't cut
> it. It's Xiph's problem, not theirs. Xiph has to
> resolve it.

Since Monty is a finite resource, what would you rather have him do? Improve
Vorbis to beat (or at least catch up to) HE-AAC, or write some technical encoder
documentation that may or may not draw third-party developers to improve Vorbis?

-Carsten
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