[theora] ogg, ogm or mkv

[yorn at gmx.net]

Hey Silvia,

yes, there is one point missing, and that was the original reason for creating the ogg video tools: it is written in c++. My idea at startup was to create a c++ library for ogg/theora/vorbis in c++. But who would use a c++ library without example code?

The command line tools have only been some lines of code away (specially oggJoin and oggSplit).

Conrad does a great job with oggz and so does j^ with ffmepg2theora. I don't want to compete with them!   

So my focus changed to create tools, that are not available (oggSlideshow, oggThumb, etc.). My aim is to help the users with some "simple" tools for video only, not for the complete ogg-world.

Hope, that explains it a bit. 

Maybe to explain oggJoin/oggSplit at the first tutorial was not clever :-/

-Yorn 
 
-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:01:06 +1000
> Von: Silvia Pfeiffer <silviapfeiffer1 at gmail.com>
> An: yorn at gmx.net
> CC: theora at xiph.org
> Betreff: Re: [theora] ogg, ogm or mkv

> Hey Yorn,
> 
> I do wonder why you re-implemented the oggtools and didn't just use
> the existing oggztools or even on Windows the tools that come as part
> of oggcodecs. Was there some limitation that you found with the
> existing command-line tools that required new implementations? I am
> asking because some of the work in the existing tools has taken years
> to get right and we do want to make sure that new software is built on
> existing experience rather than re-invented and has to go through all
> the learning experience again. Could you not just have extended
> existing tools to provide the functionality that you needed?
> 
> Regards,
> Silvia.
> 
> 
> On Mon, May 25, 2009 at 5:58 PM,  <yorn at gmx.net> wrote:
> > Hey,
> >
> > you are completely right with your critics. However, I can tell you my
> view as a tool developer (I am not a member of the xiph foundation).
> >
> > I started writing some tools to help people doing things you ask for
> (Cutting, Concatenation, Resizing, creating Thumbnails etc.) These tools are
> all command line tools (you call it DOS promt tools) and they work under MAC
> and Linux actually. I am working on that tools for more than a year now
> and I am actually working on a windows version though. However, it is a real
> lot of work, specially to support different platforms, different compilers
> etc.
> >
> > I once planed to create a GUI for all that. However I am actually
> working on my own and in my spare time. I ask for help a several times at
> different communities, but it looks as if other people are actually in the same
> situation as I am. And GUI programming is a lot of work specially if it is
> really planned to give it to the public. So I decided that I can not do that
> in my actual situation.
> >
> > I also started to create some screencasts for explaining ogg, theora,
> vorbis and my tools. So if you like, you can help me creating/editing these
> screencasts (as it took me the whole weekend to produce 1:30 minutes film).
> >
> > So as an essence: The ogg/theora community is actually a very small one.
> Every one did/does a lot to let theora be successful, but we do not carry
> this out to the users world (Through GUIs, through good explanations and
> tutorials etc.)! So what theora needs are some promoters, who bring all
> available information together and understand the users needs!
> >
> > - Yorn
> >
> > Some more resources from floss manuals:
> > http://en.flossmanuals.net/TheoraCookbook/Introduction
> > http://en.flossmanuals.net/ffmpeg2theora
> >
> >
> > -------- Original-Nachricht --------
> >> Datum: Sun, 24 May 2009 17:42:39 -0700 (PDT)
> >> Von: "Orton AKINCI aka .-_-." <ortonak at yahoo.com>
> >> An: "Ivo Emanuel Gonçalves" <justivo at gmail.com>, theora at xiph.org
> >> Betreff: Re: [theora] ogg, ogm or mkv
> >
> >> maybe i can try to write my theora experience as a regular user. it may
> be
> >> helpful to understand what problems regular people are facing when
> trying
> >> to use theora...  i
> >> am advanced in video but not into technical issues and
> >> i am doing art projects with a political approach to free software and
> >> free content. this will be long and possiblly no one will read it. i am
> >> not writing these to complain but just to help (discuss) the wide(r)
> usage of
> >> theora....
> >>
> >> i am very much interested in your work and been exploring whatever i
> can
> >> find on the internet taking xiph.org's website as a reference... but
> for
> >> example, i heard about .ogv extension for the first time in this
> mailing list
> >> from ivo's mail below... not even when we were discussing about ogm mkv
> and
> >> ogg... the theora videos in archive.org and ffmpeg2theora(last version)
> >> converted videos have .ogv extension but i didn't think that it is the
> choice
> >> of xiph...
> >>
> >> even in faq at theora page .ogv is not mentioned... it says "Ogg is the
> >> transport layer that both are stored in,
> >> so a video file will be Theora-encoded data inside an Ogg file, while
> >> audio
> >> is normally Vorbis-encoded data inside an ogg file.
> >> " http://theora.org/faq/
> >>
> >> you are doing great work on theora but regular users don't get your
> recent
> >> improvements and they are using the previous releases because most
> >> converter developers using theora do not update the software with your
> latest
> >> releases... i know that this cannot be controlled by you but there
> should be
> >> something to be done...
> >>
> >> my theora experience is as follows...
> >>
> >> i have been making art projects and wanted to distribute them just with
> >> free standarts... 3 years ago i only new about xvid;) but i knew that
> it
> >> wasn't what i was looking for... last years i heard about ogg theora
> and it was
> >> just what i was looking for as means of its "free" approach... but
> hasn't
> >> been esay to convert my videos to theora... unfortunately i am on pc
> but
> >> this is somehow good for this point because most of the people do use
> pc...
> >>
> >> ffmpeg2theora is mentioned everywhere and it is great but a regular
> person
> >> cannot use it! (it says " a user-friendly way" on xiph's website)
> people
> >> even don't know how to run it! i didn't even use dos in my whole
> life... it
> >> may be simple for someone who is familiar with dos but most people are
> >> not... i just found how to use it because someone "explained" it on a
> forum as
> >> "run cmd, carry it into it, carry the file you want to convert, hit
> enter".
> >> this may be funny for you to explain this but without this explanation
> it
> >> means nothing as a conversion tool for a person who makes video.
> because it
> >> doesn't "open" when you click on it as we pc users think how it is
> >> supposed to work:) i am not an IT idiot, somehow i can use
> ffmpeg2theora now but
> >> it was also great to find a gui for it called gfrontend ffmpeg2theora.
> it
> >> can make batch convertion and settings can be adjusted easily be
> someone who
> >> is familiar with video.... it mustn't be that difficult for a
> >>  developer (who wants theora to be used for regular people) to do a
> gui
> >> for ffmpeg2 theora... but the problem is also that it must be
> maintained as
> >> the new releases of theora come out... gfrontend still uses the old
> release
> >> and a regular person like me will be using it thinking that s/he is
> making
> >> recent ogg theora files... it creates ogg files not ogv... if someone
> reads
> >> the documentation of the program (no! regular people don't) they can
> make
> >> it use the latest release of ffmpeg2theora but still the extension will
> be
> >> ogg not ogv (although there is skeleton)... these are minor things but
> >> confusing for regular people...
> >>
> >> i have also written you about the issue with "super", which is in the
> list
> >> of theora encoders at wikipedia article... i have the latest release of
> >> vlc (which is also in the list) but it says ogg/ogm in the conversion
> list...
> >> vlc produces a theora video using the latest release but the extension
> is
> >> .ps (have no idea what it is... but this is some kind of an improvement
> >> because previous versions of vlc didn't even create a file in pc)... it
> is ok
> >> if you change it to .ogv but this is not the point, people don't know
> about
> >> these issues... i have also used some other programs with gui on
> windows
> >> but none seems to benefit the latest release... also the problem is
> that,
> >> even if they upgrade to the latest release the future releases will not
> be
> >> updated....
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> i think the solution is that xiph announces an "official" gui converter
> >> for all platforms that will be updated as the work on theora
> develops.... i
> >> know it is some kind of a waste of time for you to work on a gui but it
> is
> >> vital for the widespread of theora... it must be usable (not only to
> watch,
> >> also to convert to, because if it is not converted, it cannot be
> watched,
> >> there will be no video to watch!) by regular people to have common
> usage...
> >> for example in my last project i am working with art students and they
> need
> >> to concatenate (not even edit just add the videos end by end) some
> theora
> >> videos to make remixes but i cannot recommend them any software that
> they
> >> can USE... they are insisting on using other codecs that they used to
> and
> >> know how to work with... because there is no software that they can USE
> for
> >> theora on pc...
> >>
> >> sorry for this long mail but i just wanted to explain some points that
> you
> >> may not be aware of while working great on this projects... i am trying
> to
> >> do my best to support theora, because it is very important for free
> >> culture but theora needs a public face...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  .-_-.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Ivo Emanuel Gonçalves <justivo at gmail.com>
> >> To: Orton AKINCI aka .-_-. <ortonak at yahoo.com>
> >> Sent: Monday, May 25, 2009 1:13:07 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [theora] ogg, ogm or mkv
> >>
> >> On 5/24/09, Orton AKINCI aka .-_-. <ortonak at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> > i did so:i  run the "super" converted .ogm file through ogginfo and
> it
> >> gave
> >> > the following...
> >> >
> >> > so does this mean "super" creates "pure ogg" files but name the
> >> extension as
> >> > .ogm... and will it be "pure ogg theora orbis video" if i just rename
> >> the
> >> > .ogm extension as .ogg?
> >>
> >> .ogv actually.  We use .ogv for Ogg video now.
> >>
> >> As you can see by the ogginfo output, it's a legacy Theora/Vorbis file
> >> (newer ones have an extra stream called "Skeleton").  It's pure Ogg.
> >> No OGM hacks.
> >>
> >> Hope that helped.
> >>
> >> You should contact the makers of that software, though.  First to
> >> update their encoder to a newer one so they get standard files like
> >> ffmpeg2theora does.  Second to use the proper file extension, i.e.
> >> ogv.
> >>
> >> Thanks for your interest in Ogg and underlying technologies!
> >>
> >> -Ivo
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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> >