[theora] Re: Should Join Discussion - Fwd: [whatwg] Give guidance
about RFC 4281 codecs parameter
Charles Iliya Krempeaux
supercanadian at gmail.com
Mon Apr 9 12:07:21 PDT 2007
Hello,
Sorry... forgot to include this in the last e-mail. You can join the
mailing list here...
http://lists.whatwg.org/listinfo.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org
See ya
On 4/9/07, Charles Iliya Krempeaux <supercanadian at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> You guys might want to join this discussion. (And maybe some others too.)
>
> On the WhatWG mailing list, there's been a fury of e-mails about
> adding a <video> element to HTML5. They're talking about codecs and
> containers now. It might be helpful to have your representatives
> there. And help shape things.
>
>
> See ya
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Dave Singer <singer at apple.com>
> Date: Apr 9, 2007 10:15 AM
> Subject: Re: [whatwg] Give guidance about RFC 4281 codecs parameter
> To: Henri Sivonen <hsivonen at iki.fi>, WHAT working group
> <whatwg at lists.whatwg.org>
> Cc: Randall Gellens <randy at qualcomm.com>, "Per Fröjdh (KI/EAB)"
> <per.frojdh at ericsson.com>
>
>
>
> WARNING: I have CC'd the co-authors of the RFC, as I think they might
> like to see the discussion, comment on my answers, and possibly
> correct me. I also have a question whether there is a typo in the
> RFC...
>
>
> * * * * *
>
>
>
>
> Henry
>
>
> these are all great questions. Let me see how many I can answer.
>
>
> Overall, the RFC was struggling with the issue that there is no
> 'uniform' naming of codecs; the namespace for codecs is dependent on
> the container format, so products that do container conversion have to
> have tables of code matches. ugh. That's why the RFC is as it is.
>
>
> The RFC suggests that updated information would be done with RFCs,
> which is a little heavy. The RFC as written formally applies to 3GPP
> files and 3GPP2 files, but the definitions are applicable for all
> ISO-family files.
>
>
> As you'll see below, 3GPP has also defined it for avc1 in MP4-family
> containers, but no spec. or registration authority provides a pointer.
> We might want to ask IANA whether we could add something to the MIME
> registry.
>
>
>
>
> At 11:37 +0300 8/04/07, Henri Sivonen wrote:
>
> * Theora video and Vorbis audio in Ogg container. (application/ogg; .ogg)
> * Dirac video and Vorbis audio in Ogg container. (application/ogg; .ogg)
> * Theora video and Vorbis audio in Matroska container.
> (video/x-matroska; .mkv)
> * Dirac video and Vorbis audio in Matroska container.
> (video/x-matroska; .mkv)
>
>
> My understanding is that the Ogg container is 'specific' to these
> codecs, and therefore the codecs parameter is not needed. But I am
> not an Ogg or Matroska expert; perhaps they could chime in?
>
>
> We did have the discussion over profiles of these codecs; I
> understand profiles are not used, but I am still unclear as to which
> of the following is true:
> a) features are never added to the bitstreams, so any release of the
> decoder will decode bitstreams made by any release of the encoder
> (modulo bugs);
> b) the decoder release needed is signalled somehow in the bitstream
> ('need at least the April 2005 release or later to decode this file')
> c) neither of the above are true, it's left to the users to stay up to
> date, and if they don't, then, well, that's their problem.
>
>
> If there are profiles, release versions etc. signalled, then a
> parameter might be appropriate, and if the container formats are
> general, a codecs parameter might be appropriate.
>
>
> * H.264 Baseline profile video and Low-Complexity AAC audio in MP4
> container. (video/mp4; .mp4)
>
>
> The AAC is covered by the RFC; the example is there - mp4a.40.2.
>
>
> H.264 was recently covered by 3GPP. See 26.244 V7.1.0 section A.2.2,
> available from www.3gpp.org.
>
>
> When the first element of a value is 'avc1', indicating H.264 (AVC)
> video [29], the second element is the hexadecimal representation of
> the following three bytes in the sequence parameter set NAL unit
> specified in [29]: 1) profile_idc, 2) a byte composed of the values of
> constraint_set0_flag, constraint_set1_flag, constraint_set2_flag,
> constraint_set3_flag, and reserved_zero_4bits in bit-significance
> order, starting from the most significant bit, and 3) level_idc. Note
> that reserved_zero_4bits is required to be equal to 0 in [29], but
> other values for it may be specified in the future by ITU-T or
> ISO/IEC.
>
>
> You don't give me a level number, so I put xx for those hex digits below.
>
>
> Assuming we're simple baseline, and also main and extended compatible
> avc1.42E0xx
>
>
>
>
> * H.264 Extended profile video and Low-Complexity AAC audio in MP4
> container. (video/mp4; .mp4
>
> Extended profile has the value (decimal) 88, and typically Extended
> profile streams would be marked as Baseline compatible, at least.
> Here is an example for this AVC
>
>
> avc1.58A0xx
>
>
>
> * H.264 Main profile video and Low-Complexity AAC audio in MP4
> container. (video/mp4; .mp4)
>
> Main profile is decimal 77, so something like
> avc1.4D40xx
>
> * H.264 High profile video and Low-Complexity AAC audio in MP4
> container. (video/mp4; .mp4)
>
>
> There are a number of high profiles, confusingly, though there is one
> called 'high', with value decimal 100.
> avc1.6400xx
>
>
> if it's not compatible with main, baseline, or extended profiles.
>
>
> * MPEG-4 Simple Profile profile video and Low-Complexity AAC audio in
> MP4 container. (video/mp4; .mp4)
>
>
> Covered by the RFC:
>
>
> For example, MPEG-4 Visual Simple Profile Level 0 has the value 9,
> so a complete string for MPEG-4 Visual Simple Profile Level 0 would
> be "mp4v.20.9".
>
>
> Though when checking the next answer, I read in the spec. that we may
> have a typo here, it might be 8. Ooops, if so.
>
>
> Simple Profile/Level 0 00001000
> Reserved 00001001 - 00001111
>
>
>
> * MPEG-4 Advanced Simple Profile profile video and Low-Complexity AAC
> audio in MP4 container. (video/mp4; .mp4)
>
> Advanced Simple Profile/Level 0 11110000
>
>
> so, mp4v.20.240
>
> * MPEG-4 Simple Profile profile video and AMR audio in 3GPP
> container. (video/3gpp; .3gp)
>
>
> Video we've covered. AMR is in 26.244,
>
>
> samr
>
>
>
>
> * WMV9 video and WMA 2 audio in ASF container. (video/x-ms-wmv; .wmv)
> * WMV8 video and WMA 2 audio in ASF container. (video/x-ms-wmv; .wmv)
>
>
> These would be up to Microsoft to define, I assume. I am not aware of
> a definition.
>
>
> * VC-1 video and WMA 10 Pro audio in ASF container. (video/x-ms-wmv; .wmv)
>
>
> VC-1 is standardized by SMPTE, but again this container format is Microsoft's.
>
>
> * Real Video 10 video and High-Efficiency AAC audio in Real Media
> container. (application/vnd.rn-realmedia; rm)
>
> We'd have to ask Real, but I don't think it is defined.
>
> * XviD video and MP3 audio in AVI container. (video/x-msvideo; .avi)
> * Motion-JPEG video and uncompressed PCM audio in AVI container.
> (video/x-msvideo; .avi)
>
>
> AVI I *think* is owned by Microsoft, and I *think* they deprecate it;
> it's up to the owner to define. Again, I am not aware of a
> definition, but the 4CC style from MP4 might be appropriate.
>
>
> * MPEG-1 video and MPEG-1 Audio Layer II audio in MPEG-1 program
> stream (video/mpeg; .mpg)
>
>
> MPEG has not defined the codecs parameter for these 'file' (stream)
> formats, as far as I know.
>
>
>
> (That's a lot of cases and, yet, none are contrived.)
>
> I tried to figure this out on my own with RFC 4281 and concluded that
> this is not something that authors or even browser implementors are
> likely to get right without an expert-created lookup table. I see that
> at least of the RFC authors reads this mailing list. :-)
>
> --
>
>
> David Singer
> Apple Computer/QuickTime
>
>
>
>
> --
> Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.
>
> charles @ reptile.ca
> supercanadian @ gmail.com
>
> developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/
>
--
Charles Iliya Krempeaux, B.Sc.
charles @ reptile.ca
supercanadian @ gmail.com
developer weblog: http://ChangeLog.ca/
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