[theora] Theora vs. Nullsoft NSV

[Dan Miller]

just a quick response to a few things on this thread --
 
* There's no issue with the naming.  Xiph decided to call it Theora to distinguish it from the original VP3, since it will probably end up being incompatible
 
* Nullsoft chose to support VP3 in Winamp because they wanted a codec they could do anything with, and VP3 was the obvious choice, being good quality and open source.  They also support OGG/Vorbis audio.  I would suspect that they will support OGG/Vorbis/Theora (OVT??) files when they are stable.  We will certainly encourage them to do so.
 
* Quality: I agree with the assessment that VP3 is excellent in low-motion scenes and OK but not spectacular in high-motion.  I'm actually surprised to hear that it may be competitve with WM9; that's good news.  We plan to make some changes to the underlying compression algorithm to give it a 20 - 30% improvement, to keep it competitive with the newest codecs available.  We'll see how that goes.  Suggestions are welcome.
 
* Sorenson is, IMO, one generation behind VP3, as stated.  It is based on an older technology called VQ (same as the original Cinepak), which is generally believed to be inferior to today's DCT/motion estimation-based codecs (such as VP3, MPEG4, etc).  It works very well at higher bitrates and is pretty good with motion, but will break down badly in certain areas when the bitrate is limited. Sorenson themselves are now primarily developing MPEG-4 products, so that may tell us something.
 
* One thing not mentioned by those who tested the codecs is encode and decode speed.  This is a primary factor in designing a codec.  It's relatively easy to develop a new codec that beats existing products at bitrate/quality if you don't care at all about performance.  The challenge is to create a codec that is superior at quality/bitrate, but is also low enough in complexity to work well on typical platforms of the day.  My feeling is that VP3 is pretty good in this area too, but could be improved.  Our hope is to increase quality/bitrate of Theora without substantially adding to the CPU requirements.  Comments on this strategy are welcome.
 
- dbm

        -----Original Message----- 
        From: Jim Barnes [mailto:tojimbarnes at hotmail.com] 
        Sent: Tue 11/12/2002 1:59 AM 
        To: theora at xiph.org 
        Cc: 
        Subject: Re: [theora] Theora vs. Nullsoft NSV
        
        

        The Winamp codec for creating NSV files is the same or similar to Theora
        which used to be called VP3 and was developed under the company ON2. They
        have kept the product in the public domain by allowing it to be renamed
        Theora. While an NSV can be made with FlaskMpeg it can only be played in
        Winamp. You can use VP3 or Theora to make AVI and MOV format files.
        By using it in any video editing software you like.
        
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Freun Laven" <FreunLaven at earthlink.net>
        To: <theora at xiph.org>
        Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2002 3:56 PM
        Subject: [theora] Theora vs. Nullsoft NSV
        
        
	> How does the Theora project differ from Nullsofts NSV project?
	>
	> Other than the obvious fact they use mp3....
	>
	>
	>
	> --- >8 ----
	> List archives:  http://www.xiph.org/archives/
	> Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/
	> To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'theora-request at xiph.org'
	> containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body.  No subject is needed.
	> Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
	>
        --- >8 ----
        List archives:  http://www.xiph.org/archives/
        Ogg project homepage: http://www.xiph.org/ogg/
        To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'theora-request at xiph.org'
        containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body.  No subject is needed.
        Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
        

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: winmail.dat
Type: application/ms-tnef
Size: 9440 bytes
Desc: winmail.dat
Url : http://lists.xiph.org/pipermail/theora/attachments/20021112/d3940513/winmail.bin