<div dir="auto">Tom and Frederick.<div dir="auto">Thank you both for your input. It is greatly appreciated, not only by me, but I am sure for many others who find this thread.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Tom - using Linux server for icecast.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">HLS was brought to my attention a while back on the liquidsoap forum.</div><div dir="auto">I have not had a chance to completely look in on it, but do plan on checking it out.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Tom. You have your icecast servers in a round robin configuration.</div><div dir="auto">Are you using NGINX for that?</div><div dir="auto">I have watched several YouTube videos on using it for doing round robin as well as ssl and other things.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I understand that once a scenario of say 10,000 or more, that I will have to look into either a bigger infrastructure on my side or leasing space on the cloud somewhere.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Now, if I did do the cloud.</div><div dir="auto">Would that be to host the servers or just the files or everything?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Wayne </div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Mar 20, 2024, 4:50 PM <<a href="mailto:thomas.zumbrunnen@gmail.com">thomas.zumbrunnen@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang="DE-CH" link="#467886" vlink="#96607D" style="word-wrap:break-word"><div class="m_602899742474273154WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Dear all<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">My 5 cents (or Rappen in CH) if it comes to serving many clients.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">We are running a 4 node cluster since several years – rock solid and w/o any issues. This cluster serves many thousands of listeners from all over the world. Our source transcoder sending the audio streams to each Node. Hence, transcoding power is not an issue here. The four Nodes a geographically dispersed in</span><span lang="EN-GB"> 3 countries in Europe. In our case </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">each Node is running Debian with icecast and has 10Gbit connectivity with brilliant worldwide peerings. Good peering is key, choose your ISP wisely </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">😊</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">.Each icecast servers has the same multi domain ssl cert. which allows us to deliver to several customers (each customer a subdomain) the cluster is round robin load balanced by using AWS Route53. This approach may can be achived also with other DNS Providers like Cloudflare. For example, if one node need to be taken down for maintenance, Route53 throws the Node out of the DNS automatically. This will be achived with “health checks” This mechanism is pretty fast and responsive. If a client gets disconnected and tries a reconnect, the RR DNS is passing the client immediately to a working Node. No issues here as well. It just works.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">In the beginning we’ve experienced similar issues even though, the bandwidth capacity of the VM’s was never the root cause. We’ve identified some solutions:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><ol style="margin-top:0cm" start="1" type="1"><li class="m_602899742474273154MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Linux TCP stack tuning. Cloudflare has many studies published in their Blogs about this. But you will find a lot about this tuning also in the interweb<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="m_602899742474273154MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Consider to bake your own kernel, which is tuned for high throughput – goes in line with TCP Stack tunning<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="m_602899742474273154MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Tune the Linux open file limits and adjust the init start script for the icecast server. Example : start icecast with ulimit -c unlimited and ulimit -n 32768<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="m_602899742474273154MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Consider to use FreeBSD instead of Linux. FreeBSD has the better TCP stack out of the box.<u></u><u></u></span></li><li class="m_602899742474273154MsoListParagraph" style="margin-left:0cm;text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">If all of this is not feasible for you, just add a new Node to the cluster and level the amount of clients to more Nodes.<u></u><u></u></span></li></ol><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:18.0pt;text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">For the points 1. and 2. I can’t give you a “out of the box” solution or default settings. It’s an iteration process: adjusting, trial, load testing, monitoring and <repeat><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Because the result will need to fit your requirements, therefore every setup might need a different tuning. And btw. do not try using icecast on Windows Servers, if you need to serve a lot of clients </span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif">😊</span><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"> <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">Happy icecasting<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="text-autospace:none"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt">tom<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-GB" style="font-size:11.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></span></p><div style="border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt"><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif">Von:</span></b><span lang="DE" style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif"> Icecast <<a href="mailto:icecast-bounces@xiph.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">icecast-bounces@xiph.org</a>> <b>Im Auftrag von </b>Fred Gleason<br><b>Gesendet:</b> Mittwoch, 20. März 2024 20:53<br><b>An:</b> Icecast streaming server user discussions <<a href="mailto:icecast@xiph.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">icecast@xiph.org</a>><br><b>Betreff:</b> Re: [Icecast] Education - 1, 000s, 100, 000's, Millions of listeners. (What kind of infrastructure)<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><p class="MsoNormal">On Mar 20, 2024, at 13:16, Wayne Barron <<a href="mailto:wayne@cffcs.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">wayne@cffcs.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p><div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif">In Windows and Linux web servers, we can create a forest for our web servers.<br>Send traffic to different servers to even the workload.<br><br>Can we do something like this with the Icecast servers?<br>(or)<br>Will we have to install new VMs, add the heavy stations on that one,<br>and send the new traffic there?</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Ok, I’m going to be “that guy”…<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">I would argue that, as soon as you’ve hit an audience size of 10,000 or more (especially if that audience is at all geographically dispersed), IceCast is basically off the table. The reason why can be summarized in three letters: “CDN” [Content Distribution Networks].<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">To fan out to large, geographically dispersed audiences of 10,000 or more (not to mention 100k’s or, Lord help us, 1M’s or more), you need to get content cached in locations that are geographically close to your listeners. By far the easiest (read: most cost effective) way to do this at scale is to leverage the already existing infrastructure of CDNs (companies like Akamai or CloudFlare, that have a world-wide footprint). That means using streaming formats that utilize segmented distribution mechanisms, such as HLS or DASH. You can kinda-sorta do this sort of thing with IceCast by using relays, but it’s complex to configure and monitor while being not well supported at many CDNs (Akamai for example discontinued their IceCast product offering several years ago). HLS OTOH plays very well with that infrastructure because it’s effectively just a bunch of static files that get replicated via HTTP[S]. No special “server” software is required; bog-standard Apache or Nginx work just fine, because the complex “media handling” bits have been intentionally pushed to the endpoints; namely the encoder and (especially) the players. Today though, when FOSS HLS audio encoders are available and pretty much every browser supports playing HLS content natively, the complexity angle can be largely ignored by content creators.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Just my take. That, and 2 € will get you a (cheap) cup of coffee…<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal">Cheers!<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div><div><p style="margin:0cm;font-variant-caps:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Menlo",serif">|---------------------------------------------------------------------|<u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0cm;font-variant-caps:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Menlo",serif">| Frederick F. Gleason, Jr. | Chief Developer |<u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0cm;font-variant-caps:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Menlo",serif">| | Paravel Systems |<u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0cm;font-variant-caps:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Menlo",serif">|---------------------------------------------------------------------|<u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0cm;font-variant-caps:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Menlo",serif">| All progress is based upon a universal innate desire of every |<u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0cm;font-variant-caps:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Menlo",serif">| organism to live beyond its income. |<u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0cm;font-variant-caps:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Menlo",serif">| |<u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0cm;font-variant-caps:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Menlo",serif">| -- Samuel Butler |<u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0cm;font-variant-caps:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Menlo",serif">| "Notebooks" |<u></u><u></u></span></p><p style="margin:0cm;font-variant-caps:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size-adjust:none;font-kerning:auto;font-variant-alternates:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-feature-settings:normal"><span style="font-size:8.5pt;font-family:"Menlo",serif">|---------------------------------------------------------------------|<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p></div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
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