From David.Jones at ginger.com  Tue Jul  1 18:33:09 2003
From: David.Jones at ginger.com (David Jones)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2003 19:33:09 +0100 
Subject: [icecast] Icecast2 log and yp behaviour
Message-ID: <1EB05CB968E69745B1657137CE5FD37F01B6BF50@sexcnt02.ginger.com>



Some of you may have seen my post to the vorbis list regarding the new
Virgin Radio streams using Ogg Vorbis, ices2 and icecast2.

Anyway, I have a couple of techy enquiries about the icecast2 server.

Firstly, I want to rotate the icecast2 logs at midnight (i.e. create a new
access.log file for each day). Normally I would expect to be able to move
the existing log file and then send a killall -HUP to get the service to
start logging in a fresh access.log file. This is what I do with Shoutcast.

However, killall -HUP doesn't appear to be working for me, so I have had to
resort to the following:

<p>#!/bin/sh
DATE=`/bin/date +%Y%m%d --date=yesterday`
/bin/mv /usr/local/icecast2/logs/access.log
/usr/local/icecast2/logs/access_$DATE.log
/usr/bin/killall -KILL icecast
/usr/local/bin/icecast -c /usr/local/icecast2/conf/icecast.xml &

<p>This does the job, but kicks off any existing listeners at midnight (not
ideal!) Has anyone managed to do this a better way?

Secondly, and I've already mentioned this in my post to the vorbis list (so
apologies for the double posting). Has anyone got ices2 and icecast2 to post
information to a yp server. I can't get it to work and
http://www.oddsock.org/icecast2yp/test/FAQ suggests that it shouldn't at
least at the moment. Anyone know for certain?

Thanks

David

David Jones
Head of IT, Virgin Radio
t +44 20 7432 3346 f +44 20 7432 3456
www.smg.plc.uk * www.virginradio.co.uk
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From oddsock at oddsock.org  Tue Jul  1 19:09:58 2003
From: oddsock at oddsock.org (oddsock)
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 14:09:58 -0500
Subject: [icecast] Icecast2 log and yp behaviour
In-Reply-To: <1EB05CB968E69745B1657137CE5FD37F01B6BF50@sexcnt02.ginger.c om>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030701140756.034b3bb0@www.oddsock.org>



At 07:33 PM 7/1/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>Secondly, and I've already mentioned this in my post to the vorbis list (so
>apologies for the double posting). Has anyone got ices2 and icecast2 to post
>information to a yp server. I can't get it to work and
>http://www.oddsock.org/icecast2yp/test/FAQ suggests that it shouldn't at
>least at the moment. Anyone know for certain?
you can list with ices2 no problem, although it may be that some of the 
audio info (bitrate/samplerate/channels) might be misreported...this is 
usually the case if you are not specifying them in the config file (as 
would be the case if you were not reencoding)....Are you getting any 
particular errors ? If so, look in your icecast2 error.log for messages and 
post them here if you don't know what they mean...

oddsock

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From ross.levis at cchlawbase.co.nz  Wed Jul  2 03:15:37 2003
From: ross.levis at cchlawbase.co.nz (Ross Levis)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 15:15:37 +1200
Subject: [icecast] Oddcast disconnections
Message-ID: <84C0CDE57EDD0841880993D82051278E0A11C4@bagheera.internal.cch.co.nz>



Hi Oddsock

Have you had any reports of your OddCastv2 wa2 plugin disconnecting
without reconnecting?  I'm clicking Connect every morning before I go to
work and disconnect at night when I get home (due to traffic limits on
my DSL).  However, over the 5 days of operation, it has disconnected
itself 3 times before I got home.  I was using 2.0.3 until today when I
upgraded to the latest.

Today I was able to listen for about 3 hours before it disconnected.
When I get home, it looks like someone has simply clicked the Connect
button to disconnect, but this is not the case.

I have "Reconnect" checked with "Reconnect Secs" at 10.  Is there a log
file or something to check what may be going on?

Best regards,
Ross Levis.
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From ned.wolpert at knowledgenet.com  Wed Jul  2 18:38:49 2003
From: ned.wolpert at knowledgenet.com (Ned Wolpert)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 11:38:49 -0700
Subject: [icecast] Icecast deadlock with 1.3.12  (fixed)
In-Reply-To: <3EF39882.1070605@knowledgenet.com>
Message-ID: <3F0326B9.1010002@knowledgenet.com>



Folks,
     I email abit ago about using 1.3.12 in my environment, and fixing a 
dead-lock problem.  Since 1.3.12 is 'obsolete', not supported, and GPL 
I'm provided a patch to the mailing list of my changes to the the 
src/soruce.c distributed file.  (Its small but significant, as it allows 
for transparent relays to work)

I need to use icecast 1 until icecast2 is a) released and b) supports 
transparent relaying like icecast1 does for the time being.  If anyone 
else is in the same boat, the following diff fixes problems with 1.3.12.

[wolpert at memeplex] src> diff icecast-1.3.12/src/source.c 
old/icecast-1.3.12/src/source.c
686,692d685
<                       thread_mutex_unlock (&info.mount_mutex);
<                       thread_mutex_unlock (&info.source_mutex);
<                       thread_mutex_unlock (&info.double_mutex);
<             sourcecon = relay_pull_stream (req, &err);
<                       thread_mutex_lock (&info.double_mutex);
<                       thread_mutex_lock (&info.mount_mutex);
<                       thread_mutex_lock (&info.source_mutex);
694c687
<               if (sourcecon)

---
 >               if ((sourcecon = relay_pull_stream (req, &err)))

Enjoy

-- 

Virtually,
Ned Wolpert <ned.wolpert at knowledgenet.com>

D08C2F45:  28E7 56CB 58AC C622 5A51  3C42 8B2B 2739 D08C 2F45

      "An idea is something you have; an ideology is
       something that has you."          --Morris Berman

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From brendan at xiph.org  Wed Jul  2 18:46:50 2003
From: brendan at xiph.org (Brendan Cully)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 14:46:50 -0400
Subject: [icecast] Call for testing: libshout 2.0 beta 2
Message-ID: <20030702184649.GE978@watanabe.kublai.com>



Hi all,

I've just released beta 2 of libshout 2.0, the icecast 2 compatible
streaming library.

http://xiph.org/~brendan/beta/libshout-2.0b2.tar.gz

Libshout 2.0 adds support for icecast 2, Ogg streaming, and IPv6. Ogg
and Vorbis are now prerequisites.

Changes since beta 1:
* lots and lots of autoconf. Thanks to Karl Heyes for his help here.
* a fix for unusual MP3 bitrates contributed by Pritpaul Mahal.
* two new API features: shout_init and shout_shutdown. Applications
  are required to call these before and after (respectively) using
  the shout library, especially in threaded applications.

Please build and test it on as many platforms as possible, so that we
can do an official release in the very near future. There are no known
issues, but it has only been tested on a few platforms (recent linux,
solaris, freebsd and Mac OS X systems).

I received hardly any feedback on beta 1. I'm hoping for more in this
beta, including "works for me on system ..." reports.

Thanks,

-b
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From msmith at xiph.org  Thu Jul  3 01:37:07 2003
From: msmith at xiph.org (Michael Smith)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 11:37:07 +1000
Subject: [icecast] Icecast2 log and yp behaviour
In-Reply-To: <1EB05CB968E69745B1657137CE5FD37F01B6BF50@sexcnt02.ginger.com>
Message-ID: <200307031137.07806.msmith@xiph.org>



> Firstly, I want to rotate the icecast2 logs at midnight (i.e. create a new
> access.log file for each day). Normally I would expect to be able to move
> the existing log file and then send a killall -HUP to get the service to
> start logging in a fresh access.log file. This is what I do with Shoutcast.

Hrmmm.. Yes, this wouldn't work currently. It should be very easy to make it 
work, however. Just find (in src/sighandler.c) where it says 
    /* reopen logfiles (TODO: we don't do this currently) */
and add calls to log_reopen(errorlog); log_reopen(accesslog);

Oh, and then actually implement log_reopen(), since it's currently an empty 
function. That might be marginally harder... 

But yet - you're right that it doesn't work, and it definately SHOULD work. 

Mike

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From jjenning at fastmail.fm  Thu Jul  3 02:18:11 2003
From: jjenning at fastmail.fm (jared jennings)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2003 22:18:11 -0400
Subject: [icecast] Call for testing: libshout 2.0 beta 2
In-Reply-To: <20030702184649.GE978@watanabe.kublai.com>
Message-ID: <20030703021811.GA17804@poit.homeip.net>


On Wed, Jul 02, 2003 at 02:46:50PM -0400, Brendan Cully wrote:
> Please build and test it on as many platforms as possible, so that we
> can do an official release in the very near future. There are no known
> issues, but it has only been tested on a few platforms (recent linux,
> solaris, freebsd and Mac OS X systems).

blast, i missed the solaris part. so yeah, it compiles and the example
runs on solaris 2.8 (sparc 5). i couldn't get it to compile right on
Irix 6.5 on an O2. there were parse errors in netinet/tcp.h until i
stuck #include <sys/bsd_types.h> right before it; still problems with
vsnprintf, inet_ntop, inet_pton, and inet_ntoa (wrong prototypes?)
despite definition of vsnprintf in stdio.h and inet_?to? in arpa/inet.h.
oh, and i couldn't find a definition for struct sockaddr_storage
anywhere under /usr/include.

it also works on my debian unstable/athlon xp box, against
debian-packaged ogg and vorbis 1.0


-- 
01CB B175 70D8 2E39 CA13  AEA6 3A2B 2219 31CD 5381


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From brendan at xiph.org  Sat Jul  5 06:22:14 2003
From: brendan at xiph.org (Brendan Cully)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 02:22:14 -0400
Subject: [icecast] Icecast deadlock with 1.3.12  (fixed)
In-Reply-To: <3F0326B9.1010002@knowledgenet.com>
Message-ID: <20030705062213.GA383@watanabe.kublai.com>



This is in CVS, FWIW (that is, not much since the odds of 1.3.13 being
released are epsilon close to nil).

On Wednesday, 02 July 2003 at 11:38, Ned Wolpert wrote:
> Folks,
>     I email abit ago about using 1.3.12 in my environment, and fixing a 
> dead-lock problem.  Since 1.3.12 is 'obsolete', not supported, and GPL 
> I'm provided a patch to the mailing list of my changes to the the 
> src/soruce.c distributed file.  (Its small but significant, as it allows 
> for transparent relays to work)
> 
> I need to use icecast 1 until icecast2 is a) released and b) supports 
> transparent relaying like icecast1 does for the time being.  If anyone 
> else is in the same boat, the following diff fixes problems with 1.3.12.
> 
> [wolpert at memeplex] src> diff icecast-1.3.12/src/source.c 
> old/icecast-1.3.12/src/source.c
> 686,692d685
> <                       thread_mutex_unlock (&info.mount_mutex);
> <                       thread_mutex_unlock (&info.source_mutex);
> <                       thread_mutex_unlock (&info.double_mutex);
> <             sourcecon = relay_pull_stream (req, &err);
> <                       thread_mutex_lock (&info.double_mutex);
> <                       thread_mutex_lock (&info.mount_mutex);
> <                       thread_mutex_lock (&info.source_mutex);
> 694c687
> <               if (sourcecon)
> >               if ((sourcecon = relay_pull_stream (req, &err)))
> 
> Enjoy
> 
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From rojo at nocrew.org  Sat Jul  5 14:14:37 2003
From: rojo at nocrew.org (Rolf Johansson)
Date: 05 Jul 2003 16:14:37 +0200
Subject: [icecast] MP3/OGG/The whole thing
Message-ID: <7jwuex5acy.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>



Hello all Icecasters!

I'm using icecast 1.3.12 and iceS 0.2.3 (with a self-made patch for VBR MP3,
and an extensive Perl script for automatisation) to stream radio. Works great!

I've tried to understand everything about MP3/OGG and Icecast and since I'm a
stupid person I need to draw things all the time ;) - so I need you to tell me
if I've misunderstood anything in this scheme: 

            +---------------------+
            : libshout MP3/OGG    :
            :                     :
        +----------+          +------------+
        : icecast  : <------- : iceS - MP3 :
    <-- : MP3/OGG  :          +------------+
        +----------+              :
            :                 +-------------+
        +----------+          : iceS2 - OGG :
        : icecast2 : <------- +-------------+
    <-- : MP3/OGG  :              :
        +----------+              :
            :                     :
            +---------------------+

Speaking from this, MP3 support is dropped in iceS2 due to legal and quality
issues (?) but icecast2 still does support MP3 streaming and libshout (the ground
library) supports it too. Right?

I know OGG gives more quality with less bandwidth, but the main problem for me
is that I already have all audio as MP3 - and I don't look forward to the days
of converting all my audio.

But, I guess I could run iceS2 with a Perl script that launches lame before
every new track, so that the MP3 is reencoded as a temporary OGG file and the
OGG-file path is sent to icecast2.

I've also tried streamTranscoder but it didn't seem stable enough (1.1.0).
  
Well, thanks for your time.

/Rolf
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From brendan at xiph.org  Sat Jul  5 14:37:41 2003
From: brendan at xiph.org (Brendan Cully)
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 10:37:41 -0400
Subject: [icecast] MP3/OGG/The whole thing
In-Reply-To: <7jwuex5acy.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <20030705143741.GA404@watanabe.kublai.com>



On Saturday, 05 July 2003 at 16:14, Rolf Johansson wrote:
> Hello all Icecasters!
> 
> I'm using icecast 1.3.12 and iceS 0.2.3 (with a self-made patch for VBR MP3,
> and an extensive Perl script for automatisation) to stream radio. Works great!
> 
> I've tried to understand everything about MP3/OGG and Icecast and since I'm a
> stupid person I need to draw things all the time ;) - so I need you to tell me
> if I've misunderstood anything in this scheme: 
> 
>             +---------------------+
>             : libshout MP3/OGG    :
>             :                     :
>         +----------+          +------------+
>         : icecast  : <------- : iceS - MP3 :
>     <-- : MP3/OGG  :          +------------+
>         +----------+              :
>             :                 +-------------+
>         +----------+          : iceS2 - OGG :
>         : icecast2 : <------- +-------------+
>     <-- : MP3/OGG  :              :
>         +----------+              :
>             :                     :
>             +---------------------+

I'm too lazy to redraw your diagram, but it is missing a couple of
elements:

ices (ices0 henceforth) reads MP3 or Ogg and emits MP3. Using libshout
2 it can send MP3 to icecast 2, icecast 1, or shoutcast-compatible
servers.*

ices2 can read PCM as well as Ogg, so you could conceivably run your
MP3s through a decoder and pipe the result to ices2. This is not
recommended since quality will generally suffer, but I'd guess that
given a high enough MP3 bitrate and low enough Ogg, the transcoding
artifacts shouldn't be all that bad.

*You do need a snapshot rather than a release to do all this,
but I'd recommend that anyway since the snapshot is actually a lot
more robust than the release. For instance you shouldn't need any VBR
patch. I realise that the state of the releases is confusing.
I expect libshout 2 to be released very soon (it is now at beta
2), and ices 0.3 will be released immediately afterwards.

-b
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From k.heyes at blueyonder.co.uk  Sat Jul  5 14:39:54 2003
From: k.heyes at blueyonder.co.uk (Karl Heyes)
Date: 05 Jul 2003 15:39:54 +0100
Subject: [icecast] MP3/OGG/The whole thing
In-Reply-To: <7jwuex5acy.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <1057415994.25732.12.camel@bogus.hackers.club>



On Sat, 2003-07-05 at 15:14, Rolf Johansson wrote:

> Speaking from this, MP3 support is dropped in iceS2 due to legal and quality
> issues (?) but icecast2 still does support MP3 streaming and libshout (the ground
> library) supports it too. Right?

no one was interested enough to put mp3 into ices2, but you are right 
there are also patent/quality issues.  Icecast2 does support streaming
of mp3/ogg.

libshout itself provides a wrapper for the communication with the server
in a fairly generic way, this means the different headers and parsing
rules used by the different servers are hidden from the streaming app.

> I know OGG gives more quality with less bandwidth, but the main problem for me
> is that I already have all audio as MP3 - and I don't look forward to the days
> of converting all my audio.

there are already utilities that would help that sort of conversion, but
be aware of transcoding issues, ogg will not make your mp3's sound
better

karl.

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From folkert at vanheusden.com  Sun Jul  6 18:16:32 2003
From: folkert at vanheusden.com (Folkert van Heusden)
Date: Sun, 6 Jul 2003 20:16:32 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [icecast] protocol description
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0307062012300.30785-100000@muur.intranet.vanheusden.com>



Hi,

Do you have any documentation on the protocol used by the icecast-server?
I wrote a tool for multiplexing (proxying) shoutcast-sessions and I would
also like to convert it for icecast-sessions. This shoutcastproxy makes it
possible to listen with a couple of people to a session while only 1 is
retrieved from a shoutcastserver
(http://www.vanheusden.com/shoutcastproxy/).

<p>Folkert van Heusden
p.s. please CC me as I'm not on the icecast(-dev) mailinglist

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| UNIX sysop? Then give MultiTail ( http://www.vanheusden.com/multitail/ ) |
| a try, it brings monitoring logfiles (and such) to a different level!    |
+---------------------------------------------------= www.vanheusden.com =-+

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From ross at stationplaylist.com  Mon Jul  7 07:35:25 2003
From: ross at stationplaylist.com (Ross Levis)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:35:25 +1200
Subject: [icecast] Mediacast1 yp dir update
Message-ID: <025b01c3445a$558a2c90$4400a8c0@levis3>



Mediacast1/Caster Club have updated their yp stream directory software.
Looks good.
http://yp.icecast.net

Ross.

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From brendan at xiph.org  Mon Jul  7 23:53:07 2003
From: brendan at xiph.org (Brendan Cully)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 19:53:07 -0400
Subject: [icecast] Call for testing: libshout 2.0 beta 3
Message-ID: <20030707235307.GD411@watanabe.kublai.com>



Hi all,

I've just released beta 3 of libshout 2.0, the icecast 2-compatible
streaming library.

http://xiph.org/~brendan/beta/libshout-2.0b3.tar.gz

Libshout 2.0 adds support for icecast 2, Ogg streaming, and IPv6, as
well as bug fixes relative to libshout 1. Ogg and Vorbis are now
prerequisites.

Changes since beta 2:
* Libshout exported many symbols it shouldn't have. This is fixed.
* More anonymous autoconf code.
* Builds on Irix (much thanks to Jared Jennings for his assistance
  here!).

Please build and test it on as many platforms as possible. Unless we
hear of problems, the next release will be the official 2.0
release. There are no known issues, but it has only been tested on a
few platforms (recent linux, solaris, freebsd, OS X and Irix
systems).

Big thanks to the three people that provided feedback on the last
beta (especially Jared). Any feedback on this release will be very
warmly received.

-b
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From msellers at sbcglobal.net  Tue Jul  8 01:45:34 2003
From: msellers at sbcglobal.net (Michael W. Sellers)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2003 20:45:34 -0500
Subject: [icecast] client not connecting to server
Message-ID: <3F0A223E.8060901@sbcglobal.net>



I'm trying to connect to my icecast2 server with winamp with 
http:host:8000/test.ogg and I get the following error on the server 
console:	DEBUG: client coming in
                DEBUG: source not found for client
I'm wondering if the playlist.txt file is in the wrong place.  It's in 
/root/    and has absolute pathnames to the ogg files in my home 
directory /home/user/ogg/
What did I do wrong?	

-- 
**********************
   Michael W. Sellers
**********************

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From ross.levis at cchlawbase.co.nz  Tue Jul  8 04:02:49 2003
From: ross.levis at cchlawbase.co.nz (Ross Levis)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 16:02:49 +1200
Subject: [icecast] RE: Mediacast1 yp dir update
Message-ID: <84C0CDE57EDD0841880993D82051278E0A11DA@bagheera.internal.cch.co.nz>



Oddsock wrote:
> there are no known issues with 
> listing streams at the moment...I am assuming that you know there are 
> multiple pages of listings, sometimes it hard to see that little 
> "Next/Prev" link on each page....

Yes.  I think it's something Dave St John at MediaCast1 has done causing
the problem.  The yp dir you host appears to be working fine, though I'm
not listed there since my IceCast2 server is hosted at MediaCast1.

Sometimes when I restart my stream it appears for a while without
updating the title etc and then disappears a few minutes later.  I'm
sure Dave will fix it eventually but he is away for the week.

Ross.
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From ross at stationplaylist.com  Tue Jul  8 08:52:38 2003
From: ross at stationplaylist.com (Ross Levis)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 20:52:38 +1200
Subject: [icecast] yp.icecast.net
Message-ID: <005801c3452e$48f14750$4400a8c0@levis3>



Dave's yp test location is working fine and is up to date.  He said he was
going to switch it over to the default location but didn't quite finish the
job.
http://yp.icecast.net/test

Ross.

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From marco at sbg.se  Tue Jul  8 10:18:03 2003
From: marco at sbg.se (Marco Alanen)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 10:18:03 +0000
Subject: [icecast] yp.icecast.net
In-Reply-To: <005801c3452e$48f14750$4400a8c0@levis3>
Message-ID: <20030708101803.66daa611.marco@sbg.se>



On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 20:52:38 +1200
"Ross Levis" <ross at stationplaylist.com> wrote:

> Dave's yp test location is working fine and is up to date.  He said he was
> going to switch it over to the default location but didn't quite finish the
> job.
> http://yp.icecast.net/test

Am I the only one who can't find the URL to that YP directory, or is it just
yp.icecast.net?
Hopefully icecast won't do the standard way on this one (halt the program on
the connection to the yp directory).

 /Marco

----------------------------
Embedded RT System Developer

Marco Alanen                 
Svensk ByggnadsGeodesi AB   
Kvarnbergsv?gen 27          
141 45  HUDDINGE            
SWEDEN

Phone: +46 (0)8 7112090
Fax: +46 (0)8 7112098
Homepage: http://www.sbg.se
E-mail: marco at sbg.se
----------------------------
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From ross at stationplaylist.com  Tue Jul  8 09:38:40 2003
From: ross at stationplaylist.com (Ross Levis)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 21:38:40 +1200
Subject: [icecast] yp.icecast.net
In-Reply-To: <20030708101803.66daa611.marco@sbg.se>
Message-ID: <006201c34534$b71a0ea0$4400a8c0@levis3>



Marco Alanen wrote:

> > http://yp.icecast.net/test
> Am I the only one who can't find the URL to that YP directory, or is it
just
> yp.icecast.net?
> Hopefully icecast won't do the standard way on this one (halt the program
on
> the connection to the yp directory).

It works fine for me.

Ross.

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From David.Jones at ginger.com  Tue Jul  8 10:36:10 2003
From: David.Jones at ginger.com (David Jones)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 11:36:10 +0100 
Subject: [icecast] RE: Mediacast1 yp dir update
In-Reply-To: <[icecast] RE: Mediacast1 yp dir update>
Message-ID: <1EB05CB968E69745B1657137CE5FD37F01B6BFC3@sexcnt02.ginger.com>



Oddsock wrote:
> > there are no known issues with 
> > listing streams at the moment...I am assuming that you know 
> there are 
> > multiple pages of listings, sometimes it hard to see that little 
> > "Next/Prev" link on each page....

and Ross Levis wrote:
> Sometimes when I restart my stream it appears for a while without
> updating the title etc and then disappears a few minutes later.  I'm
> sure Dave will fix it eventually but he is away for the week.

We're getting the same problem at Virgin Radio. We're using very recent
builds of ices2 and icecast2 (i.e. less than a week old). Our entry reliably
updates in the www.oddsock.org/icecast2yp/ directory but doesn't reliably
appear in the yp.icecast.net directory. As Ross says, sometimes it appears
for a short time after a restart.

My error log is full of entries like:
INFO yp/yp_submit_url Successfull ACK from yp_touch
(http://www.oddsock.org/cgi-bin/yp-cgi)
but there is no equivalent for the icecast.net directory.

David

David Jones
Head of IT, Virgin Radio
t +44 20 7432 3346 f +44 20 7432 3456
www.smg.plc.uk * www.virginradio.co.uk
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From gshang at uq.net.au  Tue Jul  8 11:54:17 2003
From: gshang at uq.net.au (Geoff Shang)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 21:54:17 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [icecast] client not connecting to server
In-Reply-To: <3F0A223E.8060901@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.56.0307082152160.26046@data.home>



On Mon, 7 Jul 2003, Michael W. Sellers wrote:

> I'm trying to connect to my icecast2 server with winamp with
> http:host:8000/test.ogg and I get the following error on the server
> console:	DEBUG: client coming in
> 		DEBUG: source not found for client

This means that whatever program you're using to send a stream to the
test.ogg mountpoint is presumably not connecting or is not staying
connected, as there is nothing on test.ogg when winamp tries to play it.
Are you using ices?  Have you looked in the ices logfile?  If it's not run
as root, does it have read access to both your playlist and the ogg files?

Geoff.

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From arc at indymedia.org  Tue Jul  8 14:08:29 2003
From: arc at indymedia.org (Arc)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 10:08:29 -0400
Subject: [icecast] RE: Mediacast1 yp dir update
In-Reply-To: <1EB05CB968E69745B1657137CE5FD37F01B6BFC3@sexcnt02.ginger.com>
Message-ID: <20030708140829.GZ322@selket.nyfss.org>


On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 11:36:10AM +0100, David Jones wrote:
> and Ross Levis wrote:
> > Sometimes when I restart my stream it appears for a while without
> > updating the title etc and then disappears a few minutes later.  I'm
> > sure Dave will fix it eventually but he is away for the week.
> 
> We're getting the same problem at Virgin Radio. We're using very recent
> builds of ices2 and icecast2 (i.e. less than a week old). Our entry reliably
> updates in the www.oddsock.org/icecast2yp/ directory but doesn't reliably
> appear in the yp.icecast.net directory. As Ross says, sometimes it appears
> for a short time after a restart.
> 
> My error log is full of entries like:
> INFO yp/yp_submit_url Successfull ACK from yp_touch
> (http://www.oddsock.org/cgi-bin/yp-cgi)
> but there is no equivalent for the icecast.net directory.

I know why, and I'm working to fix it.

Basically it's behavior in Icecast.  For some reason some streams only
update themselves during song change, while they are suppost to update
at regular intervals too.

The YP update schedualing needs some pretty heavy TLC, hopefully I
should have a good patch for it soon.

<p>
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From oddsock at oddsock.org  Tue Jul  8 14:22:31 2003
From: oddsock at oddsock.org (oddsock)
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 09:22:31 -0500
Subject: [icecast] RE: Mediacast1 yp dir update
In-Reply-To: <20030708140829.GZ322@selket.nyfss.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030708091231.028655b8@www.oddsock.org>



At 10:08 AM 7/8/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 11:36:10AM +0100, David Jones wrote:
> > and Ross Levis wrote:
> > > Sometimes when I restart my stream it appears for a while without
> > > updating the title etc and then disappears a few minutes later.  I'm
> > > sure Dave will fix it eventually but he is away for the week.
> >
>
>I know why, and I'm working to fix it.
>
>Basically it's behavior in Icecast.  For some reason some streams only
>update themselves during song change, while they are suppost to update
>at regular intervals too.
>
>The YP update schedualing needs some pretty heavy TLC, hopefully I
>should have a good patch for it soon.
>
actually, it was a bug when listing in multiple directories only. It was 
caused by accidentally resetting the "last touch time" for all directory 
entries when it should have done it only for one directory entry.  This was 
causing the "I need to touch now" logic to not get triggered.  I just 
committed a patch to icecast that fixes this problem.  So, please update 
your code otherwise you will have troubles updating to more than one 
directory reliably.

I have also updated http://www.oddsock.org/tools/icecast2 with the latest 
CVS code as well....

oddsock

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From ned.wolpert at knowledgenet.com  Tue Jul  8 15:54:40 2003
From: ned.wolpert at knowledgenet.com (Ned Wolpert)
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 08:54:40 -0700
Subject: [icecast] Icecast deadlock with 1.3.12  (fixed)
In-Reply-To: <20030705062213.GA383@watanabe.kublai.com>
Message-ID: <3F0AE940.9010008@knowledgenet.com>



That works for me.  As long as I don't have to hold on to them. :-)

Brendan Cully wrote:
> This is in CVS, FWIW (that is, not much since the odds of 1.3.13 being
> released are epsilon close to nil).
> 
> On Wednesday, 02 July 2003 at 11:38, Ned Wolpert wrote:
> 
>>Folks,
>>    I email abit ago about using 1.3.12 in my environment, and fixing a 
>>dead-lock problem.  Since 1.3.12 is 'obsolete', not supported, and GPL 
>>I'm provided a patch to the mailing list of my changes to the the 
>>src/soruce.c distributed file.  (Its small but significant, as it allows 
>>for transparent relays to work)
>>
>>I need to use icecast 1 until icecast2 is a) released and b) supports 
>>transparent relaying like icecast1 does for the time being.  If anyone 
>>else is in the same boat, the following diff fixes problems with 1.3.12.
>>
>>[wolpert at memeplex] src> diff icecast-1.3.12/src/source.c 
>>old/icecast-1.3.12/src/source.c
>>686,692d685
>><                       thread_mutex_unlock (&info.mount_mutex);
>><                       thread_mutex_unlock (&info.source_mutex);
>><                       thread_mutex_unlock (&info.double_mutex);
>><             sourcecon = relay_pull_stream (req, &err);
>><                       thread_mutex_lock (&info.double_mutex);
>><                       thread_mutex_lock (&info.mount_mutex);
>><                       thread_mutex_lock (&info.source_mutex);
>>694c687
>><               if (sourcecon)
>>
>>>              if ((sourcecon = relay_pull_stream (req, &err)))
>>
>>Enjoy
>>
> 
> --- >8 ----
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> icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/
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> 


-- 

Virtually,
Ned Wolpert <ned.wolpert at knowledgenet.com>

D08C2F45:  28E7 56CB 58AC C622 5A51  3C42 8B2B 2739 D08C 2F45

      "An idea is something you have; an ideology is
       something that has you."          --Morris Berman

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From arc at indymedia.org  Tue Jul  8 19:58:56 2003
From: arc at indymedia.org (Arc)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 15:58:56 -0400
Subject: [icecast] RE: Mediacast1 yp dir update
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030708091231.028655b8@www.oddsock.org>
Message-ID: <20030708195856.GA322@selket.nyfss.org>


On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 09:22:31AM -0500, oddsock wrote:
> actually, it was a bug when listing in multiple directories only. It was 
> caused by accidentally resetting the "last touch time" for all directory 
> entries when it should have done it only for one directory entry.  This was 
> causing the "I need to touch now" logic to not get triggered.  I just 
> committed a patch to icecast that fixes this problem.  So, please update 
> your code otherwise you will have troubles updating to more than one 
> directory reliably.

That isnt the only bug.  One one of our icecast servers the third
stream, sf-lofi.mp3, is not being announced to YP servers at all.  On my
local diagnostics (logs all connections to the liveradio.indymedia.org
YP server) I see that icecast isnt even trying to add it.  The other YP
servers are not showing this stream either.  It doesnt appear to have
anything different between it and the other two streams.

<p>
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From oddsock at oddsock.org  Tue Jul  8 20:10:25 2003
From: oddsock at oddsock.org (oddsock)
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 15:10:25 -0500
Subject: [icecast] RE: Mediacast1 yp dir update
In-Reply-To: <20030708195856.GA322@selket.nyfss.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030708150551.02bfeea8@www.oddsock.org>



At 03:58 PM 7/8/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>That isnt the only bug.  One one of our icecast servers the third
>stream, sf-lofi.mp3, is not being announced to YP servers at all.  On my
>local diagnostics (logs all connections to the liveradio.indymedia.org
>YP server) I see that icecast isnt even trying to add it.  The other YP
>servers are not showing this stream either.  It doesnt appear to have
>anything different between it and the other two streams.
>
are you sure you are specifying this stream as public ?  This is specified 
when the source client attaches to icecast...Can you dump the headers sent 
by the source client and post them ?

what you describe is exactly what would happen if your stream was 
considered a "private" stream...

oddsock

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From arc at indymedia.org  Tue Jul  8 20:30:11 2003
From: arc at indymedia.org (Arc)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 16:30:11 -0400
Subject: [icecast] RE: Mediacast1 yp dir update
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030708150551.02bfeea8@www.oddsock.org>
Message-ID: <20030708203011.GB322@selket.nyfss.org>


On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 03:10:25PM -0500, oddsock wrote:
> At 03:58 PM 7/8/2003 -0400, you wrote:
> >That isnt the only bug.  One one of our icecast servers the third
> >stream, sf-lofi.mp3, is not being announced to YP servers at all.  On my
> >local diagnostics (logs all connections to the liveradio.indymedia.org
> >YP server) I see that icecast isnt even trying to add it.  The other YP
> >servers are not showing this stream either.  It doesnt appear to have
> >anything different between it and the other two streams.
> >
> are you sure you are specifying this stream as public ?  This is specified 
> when the source client attaches to icecast...Can you dump the headers sent 
> by the source client and post them ?
> 
> what you describe is exactly what would happen if your stream was 
> considered a "private" stream...

Already checked that. this is the HTTP header for the stream:

Content-Type: audio/mpeg
icy-bitrate:16
icy-description:SF Indymedia
icy-genre:Talk
icy-name:Enemy Combatant Radio
icy-public:1
icy-url:http://sf.indymedia.org/
Server: Icecast 2.0-alpha2/cvs

<p><p>
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From oddsock at oddsock.org  Tue Jul  8 20:40:42 2003
From: oddsock at oddsock.org (oddsock)
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 15:40:42 -0500
Subject: [icecast] RE: Mediacast1 yp dir update
In-Reply-To: <20030708203011.GB322@selket.nyfss.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030708153831.02bf3da0@www.oddsock.org>



At 04:30 PM 7/8/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 03:10:25PM -0500, oddsock wrote:
>
>Already checked that. this is the HTTP header for the stream:
>
>Content-Type: audio/mpeg
>icy-bitrate:16
>icy-description:SF Indymedia
>icy-genre:Talk
>icy-name:Enemy Combatant Radio
>icy-public:1
>icy-url:http://sf.indymedia.org/
>Server: Icecast 2.0-alpha2/cvs
what source client is generating that ?

The icy-* header that icecast is looking for is icy-pub, not icy-public...I 
don't think there ever *was* an icy-public, the two variations were 
ice-public and icy-pub.

oddsock

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From msellers at sbcglobal.net  Wed Jul  9 02:45:47 2003
From: msellers at sbcglobal.net (Michael W. Sellers)
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2003 21:45:47 -0500
Subject: [icecast] client not connecting to server
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.56.0307082152160.26046@data.home>
Message-ID: <3F0B81DB.4090201@sbcglobal.net>



Geoff Shang wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Jul 2003, Michael W. Sellers wrote:
> 
> 
>>I'm trying to connect to my icecast2 server with winamp with
>>http:host:8000/test.ogg and I get the following error on the server
>>console:	DEBUG: client coming in
>>		DEBUG: source not found for client
> 
> 
> This means that whatever program you're using to send a stream to the
> test.ogg mountpoint is presumably not connecting or is not staying
> connected, as there is nothing on test.ogg when winamp tries to play it.
> Are you using ices?  Have you looked in the ices logfile?  If it's not run
> as root, does it have read access to both your playlist and the ogg files?
> 
Thanks for responding.  That does help me a bit in troubleshooting my 
problem. My ices logfile was created, but there is no information in it. 
  I assume that means it is not starting properly.  This is my 
icecast2.xml file:

<icecast>
        <location>miyodea.com</location>
        <admin>admin at miyodea.com</admin>

        <limits>
                <clients>100</clients>
                <sources>2</sources>
                <threadpool>5</threadpool>
                <client-timeout>30</client-timeout>
                <header-timeout>15</header-timeout>
                <source-timeout>10</source-timeout>
        </limits>

        <source-password>pretend</source-password>
        <admin-user>adminguy</admin-user>
        <admin-password></admin-password>

        <directory>
                <touch-freq>5</touch-freq>
                <server>
                        <host>yp.icecast.org</host>
                        <touch-freq>15</touch-freq>
                </server>
        </directory>

        <hostname>localhost</hostname>
        <port>8000</port>
        <!-- <bind-address>10.0.0.10</bind-address> -->

         <paths>
                 <basedir>/usr/local/icecast</basedir>
                 <logdir>/tmp</logdir>
         </paths>

        <logging>
                <accesslog>access.log</accesslog>
                <errorlog>error.log</errorlog>
        </logging>

     <security>
         <chroot>0</chroot>
         <changeowner>
             <user>nobody</user>
             <group>nogroup</group>
         </changeowner>
     </security>
</icecast>

-------------------------------------------------------------

and this is my ices-playlist.xml file (it's a little hard to read):

--------------------------------------------------------------
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<ices>

        <background>0</background> <!-- run in background? (unimplemented) -->
        <logpath>/tmp</logpath> <!-- where logs, etc go. -->
        <logfile>ices.log</logfile>
        <loglevel>4</loglevel> <!-- 1=error,2=warn,3=info,4=debug -->
     <consolelog>0</consolelog> <!-- set this to 1 to log to the console 
instead
                                     of to the file above -->

        <stream>
                <!-- metadata used for stream listing (not currently used) -->
                <metadata>
                        <name>mikes classical</name>
                        <genre>classical</genre>
                        <description>classical music</description>
                </metadata>

                <!-- input module
                         This defines where the data (raw PCM, vorbis files, etc.) comes
                         from. The module used here is the playlist module - it has
                         'submodules' for different types of playlist. The only one
                         currently implemented is 'basic', which is a simple file-based
                         playlist
                -->
                <input>
                        <module>playlist</module>
                        <param name="type">basic</param><!-- Only 'basic' implemented -->
                        <param name="file">/usr/local/icecast/playlist.txt</param> <!-- be 
sure this exists -->
                        <param name="random">0</param> <!-- random play -->
                        <param name="once">0</param> <!-- if set to 1 , plays once through,
                                                          then exits. -->
                </input>

                <!-- Stream instance
                         You may have one or more instances here. This allows you to
                         send the same input data to one or more servers (or to different
                         mountpoints on the same server). Each of them can have different
                         parameters. This is primarily useful for a) relaying to multiple
                         independent servers, and b) encoding/reencoding to multiple
                         bitrates.
                         If one instance fails (for example, the associated server goes
                         down, etc), the others will continue to function correctly.
                         This example defines two instances as two mountpoints on the
                         same server.
                -->
                <instance>
                        <!-- Server details:
                                 You define hostname and port for the server here, along with
                                 the source password and mountpoint.
                        -->
                        <hostname>localhost</hostname>
                        <port>8000</port>
                        <password>hackme</password>
                        <mount>/test.ogg</mount>

                        <!-- Reconnect parameters:
                                 When something goes wrong (e.g. the server crashes, or the
                                 network drops) and ices disconnects from the server, these
                                 control how often it tries to reconnect, and how many times
                                 it tries to reconnect. Delay is in seconds.
                                 If you set reconnectattempts to -1, it will continue
                                 indefinately. Suggest setting reconnectdelay to a large value
                                 if you do this.
                        -->
                        <reconnectdelay>2</reconnectdelay>
                        <reconnectattempts>5</reconnectattempts>

                        <!-- maxqueuelength:
                                 This describes how long the internal data queues may be. This
                                 basically lets you control how much data gets buffered before
                                 ices decides it can't send to the server fast enough, and
                                 either shuts down or flushes the queue (dropping the data)
                                 and continues.
                                 For advanced users only.
                        -->
                        <maxqueuelength>80</maxqueuelength>

                        <!-- Live encoding/reencoding:
                                 Currrently, the parameters given here for encoding MUST
                                 match the input data for channels and sample rate. That
                                 restriction will be relaxed in the future.
                        -->
                        <encode>
                                <nominal-bitrate>125000</nominal-bitrate> --> <!-- bps. e.g. 64000 
for 64 kbps -->
                                <samplerate>44100</samplerate>
                                <channels>2</channels>
                        </encode>
                </instance>

                <!-- Now, we define a 2nd stream instance.
                         Here, we only define the basic server parameters - everything
                         else takes the default values.
                         No reencoding is done.
                -->
                <!-- <instance>
                        <hostname>localhost</hostname>
                        <port>8000</port>
                        <password></password>
                        <mount>/test2.ogg</mount> -->
                    <!-- Stream saving. Save the outgoing stream to the specified file
                              This is commented out since we don't want it by default -->
                        <!--
             <savefile>streamdump.ogg</savefile>
              -->
                <!-- </instance> -->

        </stream>
</ices>

<p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also I have been running it a root.  But I am a little unclear as to 
where to put the playlist.txt file.  Could not find it documented 
anywhere.  Thanks for you time and help.

-- 
**********************
   Michael W. Sellers
**********************

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From arc at indymedia.org  Wed Jul  9 02:58:23 2003
From: arc at indymedia.org (Arc)
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2003 22:58:23 -0400
Subject: [icecast] RE: Mediacast1 yp dir update
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030708153831.02bf3da0@www.oddsock.org>
Message-ID: <20030709025823.GC322@selket.nyfss.org>


On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 03:40:42PM -0500, oddsock wrote:
> what source client is generating that ?

I believe they run darkice, Mark Burdett would have to supply more
specific details as this is a relay of their lofi-mp3 stream.

> The icy-* header that icecast is looking for is icy-pub, not icy-public...I 
> don't think there ever *was* an icy-public, the two variations were 
> ice-public and icy-pub.

Well that's what happens when there isnt a documented standard.
Seriously, and no offense intended, but the whole "b"/"bitrate"
variation in the YP implementation plus "icy-br" and other variations...

You can't expect compliance to an undocumented/inconsistant standard.
Darkice generating icy-public suprises me very little, but I will say
that these streams were previously working and stopped with a recent
upgrade.

<p>
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From gshang at uq.net.au  Wed Jul  9 12:52:10 2003
From: gshang at uq.net.au (Geoff Shang)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 22:52:10 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [icecast] client not connecting to server
In-Reply-To: <3F0B81DB.4090201@sbcglobal.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.56.0307092247440.26046@data.home>



On Tue, 8 Jul 2003, Michael W. Sellers wrote:

> Thanks for responding.  That does help me a bit in troubleshooting my
> problem. My ices logfile was created, but there is no information in it.
>   I assume that means it is not starting properly.

I'd say so.  It should, then, say what the problem is when you start it.

> Also I have been running it a root.  But I am a little unclear as to
> where to put the playlist.txt file.  Could not find it documented
> anywhere.  Thanks for you time and help.

As long as you put it where you say it is in the ices config file, you
should be fine.  In the config you included, you specified
/usr/local/icecast/playlist.txt .  If you want it somewhere else, change
this value in the ices config file.

Geoff.

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From mark at linefeed.org  Wed Jul  9 13:38:33 2003
From: mark at linefeed.org (mark burdett)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 06:38:33 -0700
Subject: [icecast] RE: Mediacast1 yp dir update
In-Reply-To: <20030709025823.GC322@selket.nyfss.org>
Message-ID: <A2549DB2-B212-11D7-94A5-0030654FD4CC@linefeed.org>



yes this is darkice.   perhaps we could work in 'icy-public' support...?

--mark

On Tuesday, Jul 8, 2003, at 19:58 US/Pacific, Arc wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 08, 2003 at 03:40:42PM -0500, oddsock wrote:
>> what source client is generating that ?
>
> I believe they run darkice, Mark Burdett would have to supply more
> specific details as this is a relay of their lofi-mp3 stream.
>
>> The icy-* header that icecast is looking for is icy-pub, not 
>> icy-public...I
>> don't think there ever *was* an icy-public, the two variations were
>> ice-public and icy-pub.
>
> Well that's what happens when there isnt a documented standard.
> Seriously, and no offense intended, but the whole "b"/"bitrate"
> variation in the YP implementation plus "icy-br" and other 
> variations...
>
> You can't expect compliance to an undocumented/inconsistant standard.
> Darkice generating icy-public suprises me very little, but I will say
> that these streams were previously working and stopped with a recent
> upgrade.
>
> <mime-attachment>

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From arc at indymedia.org  Wed Jul  9 13:50:30 2003
From: arc at indymedia.org (Arc)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 09:50:30 -0400
Subject: [icecast] RE: Mediacast1 yp dir update
In-Reply-To: <A2549DB2-B212-11D7-94A5-0030654FD4CC@linefeed.org>
Message-ID: <20030709135030.GE322@selket.nyfss.org>


On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 06:38:33AM -0700, mark burdett wrote:
> yes this is darkice.   perhaps we could work in 'icy-public' support...?

Or begin a standardisation process and modify darkice to comply with it.

<p>
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From rojo at nocrew.org  Wed Jul  9 13:53:25 2003
From: rojo at nocrew.org (Rolf Johansson)
Date: 09 Jul 2003 15:53:25 +0200
Subject: [icecast] MP3/OGG/The whole thing
In-Reply-To: <20030705143741.GA404@watanabe.kublai.com>
Message-ID: <7jy8z73iy2.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>



Brendan Cully <brendan at xiph.org> writes:

> *You do need a snapshot rather than a release to do all this,
> but I'd recommend that anyway since the snapshot is actually a lot
> more robust than the release. For instance you shouldn't need any VBR
> patch.

Thanks for responding. The VBR patch was just a "dummy" patch I applied,
because iceS didn't read VBR files correctly -- it could sometimes read
it as 128kbps and don't do a recode, causing icecast to recieve a vbr
with strange errors at the client side. I made it always recode, if recode
was selected.

I will follow the development and think again about how to do in the future.

/Rolf
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From stefan at neufeind.net  Wed Jul  9 13:56:41 2003
From: stefan at neufeind.net (Stefan Neufeind)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 15:56:41 +0200
Subject: [icecast] MP3/OGG/The whole thing
In-Reply-To: <7jy8z73iy2.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <3F0C3B39.14964.AE0F94@localhost>



On 9 Jul 2003 at 15:53, Rolf Johansson wrote:

> Brendan Cully <brendan at xiph.org> writes:
> 
> > *You do need a snapshot rather than a release to do all this,
> > but I'd recommend that anyway since the snapshot is actually a lot
> > more robust than the release. For instance you shouldn't need any
> > VBR patch.
> 
> Thanks for responding. The VBR patch was just a "dummy" patch I
> applied, because iceS didn't read VBR files correctly -- it could
> sometimes read it as 128kbps and don't do a recode, causing icecast to
> recieve a vbr with strange errors at the client side. I made it always
> recode, if recode was selected.
> 
> I will follow the development and think again about how to do in the
> future.

Rolf, please have a look at the latest version and if the problems 
persist I'm sure people would be happy if you could contribute your 
patches ...

  Stefan
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From rojo at nocrew.org  Wed Jul  9 14:05:47 2003
From: rojo at nocrew.org (Rolf Johansson)
Date: 09 Jul 2003 16:05:47 +0200
Subject: [icecast] MP3/OGG/The whole thing
In-Reply-To: <3F0C3B39.14964.AE0F94@localhost>
Message-ID: <7ju19v3idg.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>



"Stefan Neufeind" <stefan at neufeind.net> writes:

> Rolf, please have a look at the latest version and if the problems 
> persist I'm sure people would be happy if you could contribute your 
> patches ...

It's the latest version I could find of ices0, that is - 0.2.3, 
with mp3 support. The patch I've done is not a patch for the real error,
it justs forces ices to always recode. The real error is in reading the
mp3 header, but I haven't looked deeper into this at the moment.

/Rolf
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From oddsock at oddsock.org  Wed Jul  9 14:08:45 2003
From: oddsock at oddsock.org (oddsock)
Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 09:08:45 -0500
Subject: [icecast] RE: Mediacast1 yp dir update
In-Reply-To: <20030709135030.GE322@selket.nyfss.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030709085256.038ebd48@www.oddsock.org>



The ice-* headers are the standard protocol for connecting to icecast2, the 
trouble is making all source clients adhere to the standard.  The option is 
to be very militant about it, and basically deny any source clients that do 
not connect with the ice-* headers , but we chose the more compatable 
route...although there is a limit to this compatability....I would strongly 
urge darkice to use the ice-* headers (including the new ice-audio-info 
header) to provide stream information to icecast2.

oddsock
At 09:50 AM 7/9/2003 -0400, you wrote:
>On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 06:38:33AM -0700, mark burdett wrote:
> > yes this is darkice.   perhaps we could work in 'icy-public' support...?
>
>Or begin a standardisation process and modify darkice to comply with it.
>

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From brendan at xiph.org  Wed Jul  9 15:11:16 2003
From: brendan at xiph.org (Brendan Cully)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 11:11:16 -0400
Subject: [icecast] MP3/OGG/The whole thing
In-Reply-To: <7ju19v3idg.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <20030709151115.GA412@watanabe.kublai.com>



Try the ices version at http://xiph.org/~brendan/snapshots/ices
You'll need the libshout 2 beta to build it:
http://xiph.org/~brendan/beta

I'm sure you'll find the MP3 header parsing a lot better in the
snapshot. I expect to release ices 0.3 simultaneously with libshout
2.0 in the next few days, so any bug reports will be very welcome.

-b

On Wednesday, 09 July 2003 at 16:05, Rolf Johansson wrote:
> "Stefan Neufeind" <stefan at neufeind.net> writes:
> 
> > Rolf, please have a look at the latest version and if the problems 
> > persist I'm sure people would be happy if you could contribute your 
> > patches ...
> 
> It's the latest version I could find of ices0, that is - 0.2.3, 
> with mp3 support. The patch I've done is not a patch for the real error,
> it justs forces ices to always recode. The real error is in reading the
> mp3 header, but I haven't looked deeper into this at the moment.
> 
> /Rolf
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From gshang at uq.net.au  Wed Jul  9 15:33:40 2003
From: gshang at uq.net.au (Geoff Shang)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 01:33:40 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [icecast] RE: Mediacast1 yp dir update
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20030709085256.038ebd48@www.oddsock.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.56.0307100131450.26046@data.home>



On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, oddsock wrote:

> urge darkice to use the ice-* headers (including the new ice-audio-info
> header) to provide stream information to icecast2.

I'm *guessing* that darkice, in this instance, is being run in shoutcast
mode.  Darkice can run in icecast2 mode, though I've not tried it.

Geoff.

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From gshang at uq.net.au  Wed Jul  9 15:35:50 2003
From: gshang at uq.net.au (Geoff Shang)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 01:35:50 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [icecast] RE: Mediacast1 yp dir update
In-Reply-To: <20030709135030.GE322@selket.nyfss.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.56.0307100133490.26046@data.home>



On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, Arc wrote:

> > yes this is darkice.   perhaps we could work in 'icy-public' support...?
>
> Or begin a standardisation process and modify darkice to comply with it.

The problem is that the icy headers are those used by the shoutcast server
and sources, and this has been reverse-engineered, not published as a
standard.  So, the deal would be to find out what the shoutcast DSP uses
(or what the shoutcast server expects) and standardise to that.

Geoff.

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From mark at linefeed.org  Wed Jul  9 15:43:19 2003
From: mark at linefeed.org (mark burdett)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 08:43:19 -0700
Subject: [icecast] RE: Mediacast1 yp dir update
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.56.0307100131450.26046@data.home>
Message-ID: <10908980-B224-11D7-94A5-0030654FD4CC@linefeed.org>



it's definitely running in icecast2 mode, but apparently still sends 
icy headers (at least when streaming mp3)

--mark

On Wednesday, Jul 9, 2003, at 08:33 US/Pacific, Geoff Shang wrote:

> On Wed, 9 Jul 2003, oddsock wrote:
>
>> urge darkice to use the ice-* headers (including the new 
>> ice-audio-info
>> header) to provide stream information to icecast2.
>
> I'm *guessing* that darkice, in this instance, is being run in 
> shoutcast
> mode.  Darkice can run in icecast2 mode, though I've not tried it.
>
> Geoff.
>
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> 'icecast-request at xiph.org'
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From rojo at nocrew.org  Wed Jul  9 17:40:39 2003
From: rojo at nocrew.org (Rolf Johansson)
Date: 09 Jul 2003 19:40:39 +0200
Subject: [icecast] MP3/OGG/The whole thing
In-Reply-To: <20030709151115.GA412@watanabe.kublai.com>
Message-ID: <7jhe5v38fc.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>



Brendan Cully <brendan at xiph.org> writes:

> I'm sure you'll find the MP3 header parsing a lot better in the
> snapshot. I expect to release ices 0.3 simultaneously with libshout
> 2.0 in the next few days, so any bug reports will be very welcome.

Okay, I had no idea ices0 was still supported and developed. :)
I'll check the latest release as soon as possible.

/Rolf
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From rojo at nocrew.org  Thu Jul 10 00:42:45 2003
From: rojo at nocrew.org (Rolf Johansson)
Date: 10 Jul 2003 02:42:45 +0200
Subject: [icecast] MP3/OGG/The whole thing
In-Reply-To: <3F0C3B39.14964.AE0F94@localhost>
Message-ID: <7jisqb1abe.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>



"Stefan Neufeind" <stefan at neufeind.net> writes:

> Rolf, please have a look at the latest version and if the problems 
> persist I'm sure people would be happy if you could contribute your 
> patches ...

The problem was solved in the latest CVS build of ices0.
No need for my bad patches. :)

/Rolf
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From rousse at ccr.jussieu.fr  Fri Jul 11 15:50:56 2003
From: rousse at ccr.jussieu.fr (Guillaume Rousse)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:50:56 +0200
Subject: [icecast] version confusion
Message-ID: <200307111750.56241.rousse@ccr.jussieu.fr>



Hello.

I'm one of the maintainer of ices packages found at http://plf.zarb.org. I'm 
currently trying to rebuild the whole ice/icecast/libshout trilogy. However, 
i'm running into some troubles.

> From what i understand, the old suite is ices 0.2.3 , icecast 1.3.12 and 
libshout 1.0.8. The new suite has only tagged release for libshout 2.0 beta3, 
whereas everything else is CVS snapshot.

Various compilation attempt showed me that libshout 1 is unusable with icecast 
2, that ices 0.2.3 doesn't build with libshout 2 (not suitable libshout found 
in configure stage, with many pthread related error messages in 
configure.log), and that latest ices2 snaphosts doesn't build either against 
libshout2 (this libshout is not thread-safe).

So, i guess the best strategy is still currently stand with old version for 
everything, until there is at least tagged beta release available for 
everything in new suite. Am i correct ?

-- 
No matter how many resources you have, it is never enough. 
	-- Murphy's Computer Laws n?1

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From brendan at xiph.org  Fri Jul 11 15:58:05 2003
From: brendan at xiph.org (Brendan Cully)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 11:58:05 -0400
Subject: [icecast] version confusion
In-Reply-To: <200307111750.56241.rousse@ccr.jussieu.fr>
Message-ID: <20030711155805.GA409@watanabe.kublai.com>



You're right, the "version issue" is a mess. But it should be
considerably improved within the next few days. Barring surprises,
libshout 2.0 will be officially released Monday (including perl and
python bindings).

At the same time, ices 0.3 will be released, which does compile with
libshout 2.0 (and features a million bug fixes over ices 0.2.3). The
snapshots in http://xiph.org/~brendan/snapshots/ices have built
against the libshout 2 snapshots for quite some time.

ices2 will build against the released libshout 2.0. It will also build
against a libshout 2.0 snapshot as recent as itself.

I don't know when ices2 or icecast 2 will be released, but I am
confident they will build with the released versions of the libraries.

I apologise for the confusion, and hope this helps.

-b

On Friday, 11 July 2003 at 17:50, Guillaume Rousse wrote:
> Hello.
> 
> I'm one of the maintainer of ices packages found at http://plf.zarb.org. I'm 
> currently trying to rebuild the whole ice/icecast/libshout trilogy. However, 
> i'm running into some troubles.
> 
> From what i understand, the old suite is ices 0.2.3 , icecast 1.3.12 and 
> libshout 1.0.8. The new suite has only tagged release for libshout 2.0 beta3, 
> whereas everything else is CVS snapshot.
> 
> Various compilation attempt showed me that libshout 1 is unusable with icecast 
> 2, that ices 0.2.3 doesn't build with libshout 2 (not suitable libshout found 
> in configure stage, with many pthread related error messages in 
> configure.log), and that latest ices2 snaphosts doesn't build either against 
> libshout2 (this libshout is not thread-safe).
> 
> So, i guess the best strategy is still currently stand with old version for 
> everything, until there is at least tagged beta release available for 
> everything in new suite. Am i correct ?
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From David.Jones at ginger.com  Fri Jul 11 16:02:10 2003
From: David.Jones at ginger.com (David Jones)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 17:02:10 +0100
Subject: [icecast] Virgin Radio Classic Rock now in Ogg too
Message-ID: <1EB05CB968E69745B1657137CE5FD37F01B6C011@sexcnt02.ginger.com>



Firstly, please excuse the crosspost to both the icecast and vorbis lists,
and the slightly commercial nature of this post.

Virgin Radio Classic Rock, which is a sister station to Virgin Radio, is now
also available in streaming Ogg Vorbis. We also have 'now playing'
information working on both services.

Links and more information at
http://www.virginradio.co.uk/thestation/listen/ogg.html

The 96kbps Virgin Radio Classic Rock stream appears to sound better than the
96kbps Virgin Radio stream. We're looking into why; it will probably be
something to do with the audio processing before it gets to the encoder.

Thanks to all those who have helped us so far in getting our Ogg streams up
and running, especially Karl Heyes for his help with the YP directory
listings. We've had some really positive feedback; it's much appreciated.

David

David Jones
Head of IT, Virgin Radio
t +44 20 7432 3346 f +44 20 7432 3456
www.smg.plc.uk * www.virginradio.co.uk

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From oddsock at oddsock.org  Fri Jul 11 18:46:17 2003
From: oddsock at oddsock.org (oddsock)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2003 13:46:17 -0500
Subject: [icecast] Xiph.org official Stream Directory
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030711133944.028c2198@www.oddsock.org>



The official Xiph stream directory has just been created, and is waiting 
testing....For those familiar with listing on YPs, this is simply another 
that can be added to your icecast.xml like so :

     <directory>
         <yp-url-timeout>15</yp-url-timeout>
         <yp-url><a href="http://dir.xiph.org/cgi-bin/yp-cgi</yp-url">http://dir.xiph.org/cgi-bin/yp-cgi</yp-url</a>>
     </directory>

Browse the directory here -> http://dir.xiph.org/

Any feedback is welcome. :)

oddsock

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From ross at stationplaylist.com  Sat Jul 12 02:12:56 2003
From: ross at stationplaylist.com (Ross Levis)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 14:12:56 +1200
Subject: [icecast] Re: [vorbis] Virgin Radio Classic Rock now in Ogg too
In-Reply-To: <1EB05CB968E69745B1657137CE5FD37F01B6C011@sexcnt02.ginger.com>
Message-ID: <008f01c3481b$1c3e55f0$4400a8c0@levis3>



David Jones wrote:
> The 96kbps Virgin Radio Classic Rock stream appears to sound better than
the
> 96kbps Virgin Radio stream. We're looking into why; it will probably be
> something to do with the audio processing before it gets to the encoder.

I think VR is mono again whereas VC is stereo.  VR is averaging around
86kb/s and VC is around 106.

If you want to average around 96 (stereo) then you will have to lower the
quality setting.  2.8 is too high.

Regards,

Ross Levis
-----------
Listen to Soul FM: http://tx.icecast.net:8616/soulfm.ogg.m3u
http://www.stationplaylist.com

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From gshang at uq.net.au  Sun Jul 13 01:18:43 2003
From: gshang at uq.net.au (Geoff Shang)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 11:18:43 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [icecast] Re: [vorbis] Virgin Radio Classic Rock now in Ogg too
In-Reply-To: <008f01c3481b$1c3e55f0$4400a8c0@levis3>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.56.0307131105080.14278@data.home>



On Sat, 12 Jul 2003, Ross Levis wrote:

> I think VR is mono again whereas VC is stereo.  VR is averaging around
> 86kb/s and VC is around 106.

Just to confirm that my observations match this.  The stream coming out of
VR is a stereo stream, but it's encoding a mono signal which keeps the
bitrate down.

> If you want to average around 96 (stereo) then you will have to lower the
> quality setting.  2.8 is too high.

Definitely.  It's interesting to watch the bitrate go up and down with
the music on VC.  Listening to Leny Kravitz, the bitrate was up over 100
kbps for
the whole song, probably due to the wide panning used in the song.  The
next track spent most of its time below 96.

BTW: The 'now playing' info on VC seems a bit funky.  I listened for about
20 minutes before we got an update.  Seems to be happening regularly now
though (it's now 01:17 GMT).

The sound is, of course, excellent.

Geoff.

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From brendan at xiph.org  Sun Jul 13 18:38:16 2003
From: brendan at xiph.org (Brendan Cully)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 14:38:16 -0400
Subject: [icecast] libshout 2.0 released
Message-ID: <20030713183815.GA415@watanabe.kublai.com>



Hi all,

I've just released libshout 2.0. This is the official release, not a
beta. Thanks to all the testers who provided feedback during the beta
period.

http://icecast.org/files/libshout/libshout-2.0.tar.gz

Libshout 2.0 adds support for icecast 2, Ogg streaming, and IPv6, as
well as bug fixes relative to libshout 1. Ogg and Vorbis are now
prerequisites.

Changes since beta 3:
* Minor build system changes

At the same time, I'm releasing shout-perl-2.0.1 and shout-python 0.1.
These are libshout 2 bindings for perl and python. Find them at:

hout-perl:
http://icecast.org/files/libshout/Shout-2.0.1.tar.gz
shout-python:
http://icecast.org/files/libshout/shout-python-0.1.tar.gz

-b
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From brendan at xiph.org  Sun Jul 13 18:45:30 2003
From: brendan at xiph.org (Brendan Cully)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 14:45:30 -0400
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
Message-ID: <20030713184530.GB415@watanabe.kublai.com>



I've just released ices 0.3:

http://icecast.org/files/ices/ices-0.3.tar.gz

ices 0.3 is an encoder for icecast-compatible servers (including
icecast 2, icecast 1 and shoutcast). It requires libshout 2.0.

ices 0.3 outputs MP3, not Vorbis. For Vorbis you will need ices
2. We know this is confusing, so ices 0.x will probably have a new
name for the next release. Ideas?

Changes since ices 0.2.3:
* uses libshout 2.0
* lots of bug fixes
* VBR support
* ID3v2 support
* trims junk from MP3 files
* much more stable

All users of ices 0.2.3 are encouraged to upgrade.

-b
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From stefan at neufeind.net  Sun Jul 13 21:24:18 2003
From: stefan at neufeind.net (Stefan Neufeind)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 23:24:18 +0200
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <20030713184530.GB415@watanabe.kublai.com>
Message-ID: <3F11EA22.23228.CA469@localhost>



On 13 Jul 2003 at 14:45, Brendan Cully wrote:

> ices 0.3 outputs MP3, not Vorbis. For Vorbis you will need ices
> 2. We know this is confusing, so ices 0.x will probably have a new
> name for the next release. Ideas?

I'm glad to hear that 0.x is still maintained and, as it seems, still 
updates. Well, but why don't you just integrate 2.x and 0.x into each 
other, I mean, use 2.x as a "major brandnew rewrite" of 0.x and 
simply add MP3-support (just an option to link against lame) to 2.x? 
It would be up to every user if he / she wants to live with the legal 
"problems" connected with MP3 or not. But where's the problem? Does 
maintaining two separate tools doing almost the same make that much 
sence?

<p>Just my 2 cents. Sorry if it might sound aggressive, wasn't intended!

  Stefan
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From daniel at electricrain.com  Sun Jul 13 21:27:01 2003
From: daniel at electricrain.com (Dan Sully)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 14:27:01 -0700
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <3F11EA22.23228.CA469@localhost>
Message-ID: <20030713212701.GC17750@electricrain.com>



* Stefan Neufeind <stefan at neufeind.net> shaped the electrons to say...

> > ices 0.3 outputs MP3, not Vorbis. For Vorbis you will need ices
> > 2. We know this is confusing, so ices 0.x will probably have a new
> > name for the next release. Ideas?
> 
> I'm glad to hear that 0.x is still maintained and, as it seems, still 
> updates. Well, but why don't you just integrate 2.x and 0.x into each 
> other, I mean, use 2.x as a "major brandnew rewrite" of 0.x and 
> simply add MP3-support (just an option to link against lame) to 2.x? 
> It would be up to every user if he / she wants to live with the legal 
> "problems" connected with MP3 or not. But where's the problem? Does 
> maintaining two separate tools doing almost the same make that much 
> sence?
> 
> Just my 2 cents. Sorry if it might sound aggressive, wasn't intended!

        I quite agree - it's frustrating to be able to use software that's
        almost there, then have all the development move to a format that 90%
        of the applications/embedded systems don't yet support.

-D

-- 
If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college.
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From arc at indymedia.org  Sun Jul 13 21:28:12 2003
From: arc at indymedia.org (Arc)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:28:12 -0400
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <20030713212701.GC17750@electricrain.com>
Message-ID: <20030713212812.GR322@selket.nyfss.org>


On Sun, Jul 13, 2003 at 02:27:01PM -0700, Dan Sully wrote:
> 
>         I quite agree - it's frustrating to be able to use software that's
>         almost there, then have all the development move to a format that 90%
>         of the applications/embedded systems don't yet support.

I'm sorry, but >90% of software does support Ogg.

Welcome to the 21st century.

<p>
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From daniel at electricrain.com  Sun Jul 13 21:33:23 2003
From: daniel at electricrain.com (Dan Sully)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 14:33:23 -0700
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <20030713212812.GR322@selket.nyfss.org>
Message-ID: <20030713213323.GA13416@electricrain.com>



* Arc <arc at indymedia.org> shaped the electrons to say...

> >         I quite agree - it's frustrating to be able to use software that's
> >         almost there, then have all the development move to a format that 90%
> >         of the applications/embedded systems don't yet support.
> 
> I'm sorry, but >90% of software does support Ogg.

        You mean all those embedded hardware platforms with dedicated MP3 decoders on them?

        Maybe if you're on a pee-cee and want to download winamp/xmms, then yes.

-D

-- 
If it wasn't for my horse, I wouldn't have spent that year in college.
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From brendan at xiph.org  Sun Jul 13 21:53:21 2003
From: brendan at xiph.org (Brendan Cully)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:53:21 -0400
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <3F11EA22.23228.CA469@localhost>
Message-ID: <20030713215321.GA8889@watanabe.kublai.com>



On Sunday, 13 July 2003 at 23:24, Stefan Neufeind wrote:
> On 13 Jul 2003 at 14:45, Brendan Cully wrote:
> 
> > ices 0.3 outputs MP3, not Vorbis. For Vorbis you will need ices
> > 2. We know this is confusing, so ices 0.x will probably have a new
> > name for the next release. Ideas?
> 
> I'm glad to hear that 0.x is still maintained and, as it seems, still 
> updates. Well, but why don't you just integrate 2.x and 0.x into each 
> other, I mean, use 2.x as a "major brandnew rewrite" of 0.x and 
> simply add MP3-support (just an option to link against lame) to 2.x? 
> It would be up to every user if he / she wants to live with the legal 
> "problems" connected with MP3 or not. But where's the problem? Does 
> maintaining two separate tools doing almost the same make that much 
> sence?

I'm speaking for myself and not in any way for xiph.org:

I think this is a reasonable suggestion. I now remember that my
original goal when I started working on ices 0.3 was to get one last
stable, fairly complete version out the door that worked with current
Xiph software (libshout 2 and icecast 2). That is, I wanted something
that wasn't deprecated for the users out there who still need to
stream MP3 (I'm one of them).

Now that I think that's done, I personally like the idea of providing
MP3 support for ices 2. I have some ideas about how to do it fairly
cleanly, though I haven't read the ices2 code in any detail.

But, whether this happens depends not just on the code getting
written, but on whether other Xiph developers are willing to lend any
more aid and shelter to the proprietary MP3 format and its litigious
owners. My personal perspective may tend more toward the practical and
the short term than theirs, but I can certainly understand if they
don't want to include MP3 support in any new code. If I didn't have
other people depending on an ices with MP3 support, I might feel the
same way myself.

-b
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From stefan at neufeind.net  Sun Jul 13 21:52:43 2003
From: stefan at neufeind.net (Stefan Neufeind)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 23:52:43 +0200
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <20030713213323.GA13416@electricrain.com>
Message-ID: <3F11F0CB.25860.26A77A@localhost>



On 13 Jul 2003 at 14:33, Dan Sully wrote:

> * Arc <arc at indymedia.org> shaped the electrons to say...
> 
> > >         I quite agree - it's frustrating to be able to use
> > >         software that's almost there, then have all the
> > >         development move to a format that 90% of the
> > >         applications/embedded systems don't yet support.
> > 
> > I'm sorry, but >90% of software does support Ogg.
> 
>         You mean all those embedded hardware platforms with dedicated
>         MP3 decoders on them?
> 
>         Maybe if you're on a pee-cee and want to download winamp/xmms,
>         then yes.

We don't have to fight here, do we? I just mentioned that if somebody 
(or many) are actively supporting and developing ices 0.x (and I 
really much appreciate that) wouldn't it make more sence to add mp3-
support to ices 2.x and have just ONE platform? I believe some parts 
(which are not already part of libshout2) could be reused. Is it 
really that much work? The good thing would be to have one tool for 
all ... what's so bad about that idea?

Yours,
 Stefan
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From arc at indymedia.org  Sun Jul 13 21:55:19 2003
From: arc at indymedia.org (Arc)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:55:19 -0400
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <20030713213323.GA13416@electricrain.com>
Message-ID: <20030713215519.GS322@selket.nyfss.org>


On Sun, Jul 13, 2003 at 02:33:23PM -0700, Dan Sully wrote:
> 
>         You mean all those embedded hardware platforms with dedicated MP3 decoders on them?
> 
>         Maybe if you're on a pee-cee and want to download winamp/xmms, then yes.

Embedded hardware platforms, AFAIK, dont play streaming audio anyways.

I'm refering to people at home who want to play a radio stream.

<p>
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From brendan at xiph.org  Sun Jul 13 21:58:42 2003
From: brendan at xiph.org (Brendan Cully)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 17:58:42 -0400
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <20030713215519.GS322@selket.nyfss.org>
Message-ID: <20030713215842.GA9605@watanabe.kublai.com>



On Sunday, 13 July 2003 at 17:55, Arc wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 13, 2003 at 02:33:23PM -0700, Dan Sully wrote:
> > 
> >         You mean all those embedded hardware platforms with dedicated MP3 decoders on them?
> > 
> >         Maybe if you're on a pee-cee and want to download winamp/xmms, then yes.
> 
> Embedded hardware platforms, AFAIK, dont play streaming audio anyways.
> 
> I'm refering to people at home who want to play a radio stream.

Without getting into the politics, there is this:

http://www.turtlebeach.com/site/products/audiotron/producthome.asp

I discovered it because its user agent was in my radio station's logs.

-b
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From stefan at neufeind.net  Sun Jul 13 22:01:48 2003
From: stefan at neufeind.net (Stefan Neufeind)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 00:01:48 +0200
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <20030713215321.GA8889@watanabe.kublai.com>
Message-ID: <3F11F2EC.31375.2EF97E@localhost>



On 13 Jul 2003 at 17:53, Brendan Cully wrote:

> On Sunday, 13 July 2003 at 23:24, Stefan Neufeind wrote:
[...]
> I think this is a reasonable suggestion. I now remember that my
> original goal when I started working on ices 0.3 was to get one last
> stable, fairly complete version out the door that worked with current
> Xiph software (libshout 2 and icecast 2). That is, I wanted something
> that wasn't deprecated for the users out there who still need to
> stream MP3 (I'm one of them).
> 
> Now that I think that's done, I personally like the idea of providing
> MP3 support for ices 2. I have some ideas about how to do it fairly
> cleanly, though I haven't read the ices2 code in any detail.
> 
> But, whether this happens depends not just on the code getting
> written, but on whether other Xiph developers are willing to lend any
> more aid and shelter to the proprietary MP3 format and its litigious
> owners. My personal perspective may tend more toward the practical and
> the short term than theirs, but I can certainly understand if they
> don't want to include MP3 support in any new code. If I didn't have
> other people depending on an ices with MP3 support, I might feel the
> same way myself.

Well okay, I can understand their attitude. But it seems more like a 
religious thing: "no mp3 is evil, we don't do that". If anybody might 
implement streaming of wmv, ra or maybe some other format - whatever -
 will they say "we don't want to do that"? Why not make a good and 
flexible product out of it? What "bad sides" do they fear when 
implementing an "open" interface so that e.g. Brendan could add mp3-
support? If somebody has problems with lame-support (legal matters) 
okay - he just doesn't have to turn the "--with-lame-support"-switch 
on when compiling and thats it. I just don't get the point folks.

Well, maybe we should leave the discussion here .. I guess it should 
now be the Xiph-people to start a "well okay, let's do it". And if 
they don't nobody will doom them for it. But that's not the poing.
Ogg / Vorbis is brilliant, icecast2 and ices 2.x are very brilliant 
(I really like those very much). But since some customers really 
insist on using mp3 I must advocate Brendan and thank him for the 
nice work he has done when finishing ices 0.3. Mp3 will never be 
dead. And maybe if we (me included) would vote with all our voice for 
Ogg still somebody would cry Mp3. Who cares ... But as long as 
there's the possibility to support this format (and I guess there's 
not that much chaos in the ices 2.x-code after implementing it) why 
not do?

Again some two cents. Good night
 Stefan
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From gtgbr at gmx.net  Sun Jul 13 22:47:50 2003
From: gtgbr at gmx.net (gtgbr at gmx.net)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 00:47:50 +0200
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <20030713184530.GB415@watanabe.kublai.com>
Message-ID: <3F11E196.667475A4@gmx.net>



Hi Brendan!

<p>Brendan Cully wrote:
> I've just released ices 0.3:

Sorry for neglecting to test an ices 0.3 beta. ;P

Although I haven't actually run ices 0, yet, I found a glitch in the
installation... --with-docdir is almost always needed, unless you use a
non-standard *nix clone (I suppose). By default, ices puts its docs into
/usr/local/doc/ices, while it *should* go into
/usr/local/share/doc/ices. Also, --sysconfdir seems to be ignored, I
haven't managed to install ices.conf.dist anywhere but /etc. :-/

Otherwise it appears to be compiling just fine, and I'm working on a
flavored port to OpenBSD for ices0. :)

<p>Moritz
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From brendan at xiph.org  Sun Jul 13 22:59:22 2003
From: brendan at xiph.org (Brendan Cully)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 18:59:22 -0400
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <3F11E196.667475A4@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <20030713225921.GC9605@watanabe.kublai.com>



On Monday, 14 July 2003 at 00:47, gtgbr at gmx.net wrote:
> Hi Brendan!
> 
> 
> Brendan Cully wrote:
> > I've just released ices 0.3:
> 
> Sorry for neglecting to test an ices 0.3 beta. ;P

Well, since this was an update to 0.2.3, the beta period didn't seem
as necessary. But you have a point.

> Although I haven't actually run ices 0, yet, I found a glitch in the
> installation... --with-docdir is almost always needed, unless you use a
> non-standard *nix clone (I suppose). By default, ices puts its docs into
> /usr/local/doc/ices, while it *should* go into
> /usr/local/share/doc/ices.

I should change that.

> Also, --sysconfdir seems to be ignored, I
> haven't managed to install ices.conf.dist anywhere but /etc. :-/

This I can't reproduce. In fact I use a non-standard sysconfdir in my
own installs.

> Otherwise it appears to be compiling just fine, and I'm working on a
> flavored port to OpenBSD for ices0. :)

excellent, thanks.

-b
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From daniel at electricrain.com  Sun Jul 13 23:11:12 2003
From: daniel at electricrain.com (Dan Sully)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 16:11:12 -0700
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <20030713215842.GA9605@watanabe.kublai.com>
Message-ID: <20030713231112.GB13416@electricrain.com>



* Brendan Cully <brendan at xiph.org> shaped the electrons to say...

> Without getting into the politics, there is this:
> 
> http://www.turtlebeach.com/site/products/audiotron/producthome.asp
> 
> I discovered it because its user agent was in my radio station's logs.

        Also check:

                http://www.slimdevices.com/

        Which is a thin-client mp3 player. Yes, it can transcode from ogg,
        flac, etc. It can also stream from an "internet radio" source. Server
        is written in perl and is open source.

-D

-- 
This movie has warped my fragile little mind.
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From msmith at xiph.org  Mon Jul 14 01:14:22 2003
From: msmith at xiph.org (Michael Smith)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:14:22 +1000
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <20030713215321.GA8889@watanabe.kublai.com>
Message-ID: <200307141114.22122.msmith@xiph.org>



> Now that I think that's done, I personally like the idea of providing
> MP3 support for ices 2. I have some ideas about how to do it fairly
> cleanly, though I haven't read the ices2 code in any detail.
>
> But, whether this happens depends not just on the code getting
> written, but on whether other Xiph developers are willing to lend any
> more aid and shelter to the proprietary MP3 format and its litigious
> owners. My personal perspective may tend more toward the practical and
> the short term than theirs, but I can certainly understand if they
> don't want to include MP3 support in any new code. If I didn't have
> other people depending on an ices with MP3 support, I might feel the
> same way myself.
>

Our attitude towards mp3 support in the 'icecast suite' has generally been 
"we're not that interested in doing the work ourselves, but have no 
objections to integrating work done by others". 

So basically, as long as it's entirely optional (i.e. you could compile ices2 
without any mp3 (encoding or decoding) support), I'd have absolutely no 
problems with having mp3 support in there - but it's not work I'm interested 
in doing myself.

Mike

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From gtgbr at gmx.net  Mon Jul 14 08:59:21 2003
From: gtgbr at gmx.net (gtgbr at gmx.net)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:59:21 +0200
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <20030713225921.GC9605@watanabe.kublai.com>
Message-ID: <3F1270E9.6813F53F@gmx.net>



Brendan Cully wrote:
> > Also, --sysconfdir seems to be ignored, I
> > haven't managed to install ices.conf.dist anywhere but /etc. :-/
> 
> This I can't reproduce. In fact I use a non-standard sysconfdir in my
> own installs.

Forget about that, it was the ports framework overwriting this once
again without my knowledge. It all makes sense now, but that's what you
get from learning-by-doing. :) Sorry for the fuzz.

<p>Moritz
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From jan at ca.pri.ee  Mon Jul 14 10:16:39 2003
From: jan at ca.pri.ee (Jan-Erik Moon)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 13:16:39 +0300
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <20030713184530.GB415@watanabe.kublai.com>
Message-ID: <001601c349f1$0454d400$697d6ac2@zehr>



----- Original Message -----
From: "Brendan Cully" <brendan at xiph.org>
To: <icecast at xiph.org>
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 9:45 PM
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released

<p>> icecast 2, icecast 1 and shoutcast). It requires libshout 2.0.

I didn't see any switches that would allow me to specify libshout directory?

Jan

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From brendan at xiph.org  Mon Jul 14 14:41:52 2003
From: brendan at xiph.org (Brendan Cully)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:41:52 -0400
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <001601c349f1$0454d400$697d6ac2@zehr>
Message-ID: <20030714144152.GA408@watanabe.kublai.com>



On Monday, 14 July 2003 at 13:16, Jan-Erik Moon wrote:
> From: "Brendan Cully" <brendan at xiph.org>
> To: <icecast at xiph.org>
> Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 9:45 PM
> Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
> 
> 
> > icecast 2, icecast 1 and shoutcast). It requires libshout 2.0.
> 
> I didn't see any switches that would allow me to specify libshout directory?

No you didn't. The new libshout installs a pkgconfig or shout-config
helper program. You can tell ices where to find these by altering
PKG_CONFIG_PATH or PATH when running configure (depending on whether
or not your system has pkgconfig).

-b
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From matt at sprout.org  Mon Jul 14 16:24:34 2003
From: matt at sprout.org (Matt Boersma)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:24:34 -0600
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <20030713212812.GR322@selket.nyfss.org>
Message-ID: <20030714102434.C27742@sprout.org>


On Sun, Jul 13, 2003 at 05:28:12PM -0400, Arc wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 13, 2003 at 02:27:01PM -0700, Dan Sully wrote:
> > 
> >         I quite agree - it's frustrating to be able to use software that's
> >         almost there, then have all the development move to a format that 90%
> >         of the applications/embedded systems don't yet support.
> 
> I'm sorry, but >90% of software does support Ogg.

One thing that is *not* accelerating the adoption of ogg is this
kind of attitude.  I run an online radio station.  We're drooling
to move to ogg, but there are major tradeoffs:
- Most listeners will have to upgrade to a new client or
install a plugin.
- Most WinAMPers connect with v.3, which won't work with ogg
principally because the icecast developers make no concessions
for its mistaken mime-typing.
- Mac users have to give up iTunes and install Whamb.
- Effectively no hardware device support.

I realize all this is changing, and I'm doing whatever I can to
get it there, but you can only force new standards and technologies
on people if you're Steve Jobs.  Others should be as accomodating
as possible. 

<p>> Welcome to the 21st century.

Welcome...to the real world.

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From jae+icecast at jerhard.org  Mon Jul 14 02:16:32 2003
From: jae+icecast at jerhard.org (Jürgen A. Erhard)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 04:16:32 +0200
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <3F11F2EC.31375.2EF97E@localhost>
Message-ID: <20030714021632.GA9699@sanctum.jerhard.org>


On Mon, Jul 14, 2003 at 12:01:48AM +0200, Stefan Neufeind wrote:
> On 13 Jul 2003 at 17:53, Brendan Cully wrote:
> 
> > On Sunday, 13 July 2003 at 23:24, Stefan Neufeind wrote:
> [...]
> > Now that I think that's done, I personally like the idea of providing
> > MP3 support for ices 2. I have some ideas about how to do it fairly
> > cleanly, though I haven't read the ices2 code in any detail.
> > 
> > But, whether this happens depends [...] on whether other Xiph developers
> > are willing to lend any more aid and shelter to the proprietary MP3
> > format and its litigious owners. [...]
> 
> Well okay, I can understand their attitude. But it seems more like a 
> religious thing: "no mp3 is evil, we don't do that".

Why don't you try, for a moment, to look at it in a purely competitive way:
why should xiph.org build support for their competition into one of
their products?

Would Microsoft do that?  See Java.

To me, this sounds a bit like "If a Free Software developer doesn't want to
support Windows, he's *bad*, but if Microsoft doesn't support Linux, that's
okay."

And, btw, nobody stops anybody from implementing all that you mentioned
(apart from the owners of those formats) in icecast[12].  That's what Free
Software is all about.  It's just that it won't be in the official release
(if xiph.org doesn't okay it, of course).

Bye, J


-- 
                            J??rgen A. Erhard
                 Invasion!  http://invasion.jerhard.org
                   "We must learn from our mistakes,
       so we can make bigger and better ones." -- Bruce M Krawetz


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From jack at xiph.org  Mon Jul 14 16:47:24 2003
From: jack at xiph.org (Jack Moffitt)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:47:24 -0600
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <20030714102434.C27742@sprout.org>
Message-ID: <20030714164724.GG28036@i.cantcode.com>



> - Most listeners will have to upgrade to a new client or
> install a plugin.

I don't see a way around this in the general case, until Ogg is so
widely used that it would be a bad business idea not to support it.  I
think it will eventually happen, but it will take time (it took ~ 4-5
years for MP3 to achieve this).

That said, we are hoping to have RealPlayer auto-update support in the
near future.  We also hope to have some kind of simple to install WMP
integration (perhaps via ActiveX?).  iTunes and Quicktime seem to unable
to support Ogg playback, and it looks like it will be quite a while
before we get streaming in Apple's tools.  All of the other players I'm
aware of pretty much already support Ogg.

> - Most WinAMPers connect with v.3, which won't work with ogg
> principally because the icecast developers make no concessions
> for its mistaken mime-typing.

What?  Last I checked, the ogg plugin for winamp 3 threadlocked just
after connect.  As far as I know, any bugs there are not our fault.  If
they are, we'd appreciate a detailed description on icecast-dev.  

> - Mac users have to give up iTunes and install Whamb.

Blame Apple.  Quicktime doesn't support VBR audio playback (or at least
not the type that we need).  Also, all streaming in iTunes is handled
internally, and there is no public API for this.  Nor is there a public
API for supporting Ogg directly in iTunes (as opposed to via Quicktime).
Several developers have spent a lot of time trying, and we've had next
to zero success.

> - Effectively no hardware device support.

This is just wrong, and getting more so.  See
http://wiki.xiph.org/VorbisHardware.

> I realize all this is changing, and I'm doing whatever I can to
> get it there, but you can only force new standards and technologies
> on people if you're Steve Jobs.  Others should be as accomodating
> as possible. 

We're trying to be accomodating.  This is why icecast supports mp3 and
ogg formats (as was always planned) so that people have a nice easy
upgrade path.  It will take people producing content in Ogg for people
to demand content in Ogg... it's all a big catch-22, and we appreciate
your efforts to help out.

jack.
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From jack at xiph.org  Mon Jul 14 16:56:47 2003
From: jack at xiph.org (Jack Moffitt)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:56:47 -0600
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <20030714021632.GA9699@sanctum.jerhard.org>
Message-ID: <20030714165647.GH28036@i.cantcode.com>



> > Well okay, I can understand their attitude. But it seems more like a 
> > religious thing: "no mp3 is evil, we don't do that".

MP3 is patented.  We can't support it fully even if we wanted to.  This
restriction is what initially provoked me to seek out Monty and pour my
companies resources into Vorbis in the first place.

> Why don't you try, for a moment, to look at it in a purely competitive way:
> why should xiph.org build support for their competition into one of
> their products?

Well, we try and support it where we feel comfortable doing so to
provide a nice upgrade path for users.  We realize that turning off MP3
streams and turning on Ogg is not going to work very well, but that
giving people the option and encourging one over the other will probably
have the desired effect.

> And, btw, nobody stops anybody from implementing all that you mentioned
> (apart from the owners of those formats) in icecast[12].  That's what Free
> Software is all about.  It's just that it won't be in the official release
> (if xiph.org doesn't okay it, of course).

We can't support all the features in ices for mp3 in any binary version,
because encode is heavily patented.  It's a _lot_ harder to get ices 0.3
working than ices 2.x working, since with ices 2.x all you need is to
download and RPM, deb, or similar package and you're done.  With ices
0.3, the only place you can get LAME is quasi-legally from russian (or
other) servers, and even then, running it is a patent infringement.

That said, the reason we haven't done it is because of finite time
availalbe, not because of some grand conspiracy.  None of us want to
write the code, because it's not fun to write code that isn't even
completely Free or possibly even legal to use.  The whole reason we
started this project was to get rid of these problems, so we're not
highly motivated to return to them.

We're lucky to have Brendan who was interested in fixing up the mp3
broadcasting tools.  As I'm sure he'll agree, we've done nothing but
encourage him in his endevours to support mp3 in icecast2, so I don't
see any reason for all of this silly conspiracy talk.  Remember,
basically none of us get paid to do this, so of course we will work on
what we like first.  You're welcome to fund a project you are interested
in.

jack.
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From matt at sprout.org  Mon Jul 14 17:43:01 2003
From: matt at sprout.org (Matt Boersma)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:43:01 -0600
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <20030714164724.GG28036@i.cantcode.com>
Message-ID: <20030714114301.A19906@sprout.org>


On Mon, Jul 14, 2003 at 10:47:24AM -0600, Jack Moffitt wrote:
> > - Most listeners will have to upgrade to a new client or
> > install a plugin.
> 
> I don't see a way around this in the general case, until Ogg is so
> widely used that it would be a bad business idea not to support it.  I

Completely agree.  I know it's a chicken-and-egg thing, and I am
competely sympathetic--it's just the "Welcome to the 21st Century"
attitude of the previous poster that irked me.  Things are not so
cut-and-dried for those of us trying to make our audio accessible
to as many people as possible, with the minimum hassle and
maximum quality.

> That said, we are hoping to have RealPlayer auto-update support in the
> near future. [snip]

I just returned from OSCON, and went to a talk by an engineer from
RealNetworks.  She talked about how simple it was to integrate Ogg
Vorbis support into the Helix Server / Producer framework, which
you can now download and build from CVS.  Of course they were plugging
their semi-open platform, and sadly hadn't even thought about taking
the next step to stream it, or receive it in their client--only
static encoding to files right now.  Your name actually came up when
I asked her about streaming, although I wasn't clear what she thought
you were doing in this regard.

iTunes kicks major bootie, and it is a shame that they have locked
up whatever streaming API must exist.  Come on, Apple!

And WRT WinAMP 3--maybe I'm just getting lucky.  If I hack my icecast
2 server to emit "application/x-ogg" as the mime type, it seems to
play back fine without locking up.  But I realize WinAMP 3 should and
will go the way of the dodo.  I'm just not sure how to tell folks in
the interim "Downgrade to WinAMP 2.91."

Thanks, Jack.  Keep up the great work.  Ogg deserves to take over--
the quality of our low-bitrate (~50Kbps forced VBR) test stream is
nothing short of stunning.

Matt

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From ff at squat.net  Mon Jul 14 19:22:24 2003
From: ff at squat.net (basilok)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 21:22:24 +0200
Subject: [icecast] libshout 2.0 released
In-Reply-To: <20030713183815.GA415@watanabe.kublai.com>
Message-ID: <3F1302F0.40102@squat.net>



> 
> At the same time, I'm releasing shout-perl-2.0.1 and shout-python 0.1.
> These are libshout 2 bindings for perl and python. Find them at:

many many many many thanks! i thought Shout.pm had been left by the wayside a 
long time ago, and the task of figuring out how to update the perl module to use 
the new connection structure was way too daunting for me.

-- fatfreddy ( see http://squat.net/freestream/ogg/ for an application of the 
new Shout.pm )

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From chrisg1 at umbc.edu  Mon Jul 14 20:21:56 2003
From: chrisg1 at umbc.edu (Chris G Moguta)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:21:56 -0400
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <[icecast] ices 0.3 released>
Message-ID: <3F18D99B@webmail.umbc.edu>



>> > - Most listeners will have to upgrade to a new client or
>> > install a plugin.
>>
>> I don't see a way around this in the general case, until Ogg is so
>> widely used that it would be a bad business idea not to support it.  I
>
>Completely agree.  I know it's a chicken-and-egg thing, and I am
>competely sympathetic--it's just the "Welcome to the 21st Century"
>attitude of the previous poster that irked me.  Things are not so
>cut-and-dried for those of us trying to make our audio accessible
>to as many people as possible, with the minimum hassle and
>maximum quality.

I'm attempting to start up a new radio, and my opinion is that when most 
people hear the sound quality of Ogg Vorbis, they won't mind upgrading 
(especially modem users used to crappy 24Kbps MP3 streams).  However, that 
attitude just may kill me.  ;P

>> That said, we are hoping to have RealPlayer auto-update support in the
>> near future. [snip]
>
>I just returned from OSCON, and went to a talk by an engineer from
>RealNetworks.  She talked about how simple it was to integrate Ogg
>Vorbis support into the Helix Server / Producer framework, which
>you can now download and build from CVS.  Of course they were plugging
>their semi-open platform, and sadly hadn't even thought about taking
>the next step to stream it, or receive it in their client--only
>static encoding to files right now.  Your name actually came up when
>I asked her about streaming, although I wasn't clear what she thought
>you were doing in this regard.

Dude, if RealPlayer gets Icecast2/Vorbis support, that's just one more step in 
the right direction.  Most people don't use WinAmp, but WiMP, Real, or iTunes 
(which is unfortunate).  If you guys at Xiph can get WiMP to accept Icecast2 
streams somehow, then I'll really be rejoicing.  ^_^

>And WRT WinAMP 3--maybe I'm just getting lucky.  If I hack my icecast
>2 server to emit "application/x-ogg" as the mime type, it seems to
>play back fine without locking up.  But I realize WinAMP 3 should and
>will go the way of the dodo.  I'm just not sure how to tell folks in
>the interim "Downgrade to WinAMP 2.91."

How about because WinAmp 2.91 *isn't* a downgrade?  The only thing that WinAmp 
3 has over 2.91 is the skinning interface.  WA2 has some features that were 
never bothered to be ported to WA3, and what extra features were in WA3 were 
added in with WA 2.90

>Thanks, Jack.  Keep up the great work.  Ogg deserves to take over--
>the quality of our low-bitrate (~50Kbps forced VBR) test stream is
>nothing short of stunning.

See?  ;)  I'm hoping that's what kind of reaction listeners will have.

>Matt

- Chris

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From bcasci at runbox.com  Mon Jul 14 20:49:33 2003
From: bcasci at runbox.com (Brandon)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:49:33 -0400
Subject: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream
In-Reply-To: <3F18D99B@webmail.umbc.edu>
Message-ID: <00f701c34a49$6ec04bf0$6402a8c0@surfcontrol.com>



Just curious....

how longs do you guys think it will be before OGG is a mainstream
format....meaning as widley accepted and supported as mp3, wma, ect ect?

Just wondering because I just added an MP3 music store to my radio station
(www.FightForRock.com), and while I do broadcast in OGG (and several other
formats) I chose to sell music in MP3 formatbased on it being the best
supported compressed audio format. I am toying with the idea of sellign OGG
versions too.

Brandon

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From brendan at xiph.org  Mon Jul 14 20:48:05 2003
From: brendan at xiph.org (Brendan Cully)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:48:05 -0400
Subject: [icecast] libshout 2.0 released
In-Reply-To: <3F1302F0.40102@squat.net>
Message-ID: <20030714204805.GE3149@watanabe.kublai.com>



On Monday, 14 July 2003 at 21:22, basilok wrote:
> >
> >At the same time, I'm releasing shout-perl-2.0.1 and shout-python 0.1.
> >These are libshout 2 bindings for perl and python. Find them at:
> 
> many many many many thanks! i thought Shout.pm had been left by the wayside 
> a long time ago, and the task of figuring out how to update the perl module 
> to use the new connection structure was way too daunting for me.

Thanks go to Paul Bournival for doing the original update to libshout
2.

Thanks Paul :)

-b
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From speedwolf at door.net  Mon Jul 14 21:15:18 2003
From: speedwolf at door.net (Bryan Payne)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 16:15:18 -0500
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <20030714164724.GG28036@i.cantcode.com>
Message-ID: <006b01c34a4d$06c69280$6401a8c0@spacialici1s1d>



Actually I think there is already allot of mainstream support for the
format?

In fact many large Gaming developers including EA and Sierra use the format
to drive audio in their gamning - there is allot of hardware supporting the
format as well and many player solutions in place that support it -

However the issue of most concern to me is although for localised encoding
and "Playback" Ogg is doing great - There still apears to be a lack of
supporting applications and devices for the Streaming market. My gauge of
that however is just as you said Jack - it's a matter of time.

Bryan Payne
Spacial Audio Solutions
806-549-1085
www.spacialaudio.com
www.audiorealm.com

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Moffitt" <jack at xiph.org>
To: <icecast at xiph.org>
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 11:47 AM
Subject: Re: [icecast] ices 0.3 released

<p>> > - Most listeners will have to upgrade to a new client or
> > install a plugin.
>
> I don't see a way around this in the general case, until Ogg is so
> widely used that it would be a bad business idea not to support it.  I
> think it will eventually happen, but it will take time (it took ~ 4-5
> years for MP3 to achieve this).
>
> That said, we are hoping to have RealPlayer auto-update support in the
> near future.  We also hope to have some kind of simple to install WMP
> integration (perhaps via ActiveX?).  iTunes and Quicktime seem to unable
> to support Ogg playback, and it looks like it will be quite a while
> before we get streaming in Apple's tools.  All of the other players I'm
> aware of pretty much already support Ogg.
>
> > - Most WinAMPers connect with v.3, which won't work with ogg
> > principally because the icecast developers make no concessions
> > for its mistaken mime-typing.
>
> What?  Last I checked, the ogg plugin for winamp 3 threadlocked just
> after connect.  As far as I know, any bugs there are not our fault.  If
> they are, we'd appreciate a detailed description on icecast-dev.
>
> > - Mac users have to give up iTunes and install Whamb.
>
> Blame Apple.  Quicktime doesn't support VBR audio playback (or at least
> not the type that we need).  Also, all streaming in iTunes is handled
> internally, and there is no public API for this.  Nor is there a public
> API for supporting Ogg directly in iTunes (as opposed to via Quicktime).
> Several developers have spent a lot of time trying, and we've had next
> to zero success.
>
> > - Effectively no hardware device support.
>
> This is just wrong, and getting more so.  See
> http://wiki.xiph.org/VorbisHardware.
>
> > I realize all this is changing, and I'm doing whatever I can to
> > get it there, but you can only force new standards and technologies
> > on people if you're Steve Jobs.  Others should be as accomodating
> > as possible.
>
> We're trying to be accomodating.  This is why icecast supports mp3 and
> ogg formats (as was always planned) so that people have a nice easy
> upgrade path.  It will take people producing content in Ogg for people
> to demand content in Ogg... it's all a big catch-22, and we appreciate
> your efforts to help out.
>
> jack.
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From mccasey at clara.co.uk  Mon Jul 14 21:19:52 2003
From: mccasey at clara.co.uk (Mark Casey)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:19:52 +0100
Subject: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream
In-Reply-To: <00f701c34a49$6ec04bf0$6402a8c0@surfcontrol.com>
Message-ID: <000301c34a4d$adafc260$0200a8c0@zebedee>



I think when the real-time cbr encoding issues are sorted Vorbis (this is my
experience with oddcast dsp, winamp and icecast 2 win32, big cpu hog) will
start gaining more ground, also I think it will also gain more ground when
it starts getting implemented into the more mainstream software and hardware
products.
For the most part vbr mp3 (btw, provide mp3's for downloads as vbr.. Better
quality for filesize than cbr) is more than suitable, however where I think
Vorbis should be focused on is the lower bitrate area because quite frankly
like I said mp3 is more than suitable for anything greater than 160kbps, but
at lower bitrates Vorbis thoroughly thrashes all except RealAudio at low
bitrates, but then.. Nobody likes Real's player so no one will use that
anytime soon. (I mean in regards to small broadcasters)
Streaming stuff is where its at, like Icecast, Shoutcast etc and getting the
best possible quality out of the limited bandwidth available. That's where
OGG Vorbis really shines and beats the crap out of MP3, WMA etc.

How long it takes to reach mainstream, I have no idea.. When perhaps the
majority of hardware players support OGG Vorbis playback and stuff like
Shoutcast supports Vorbis, then it will probably happen. (lets face facts,
the majority of small broadcasters are ignorant of icecast and like all
human beings are innately lazy, therefore they'll stick with shoutcast.. So
until shoutcast and its dsp supports vorbis they'll be broadcasting in mp3
only)

Mark
 

<p>-----Original Message-----
From: owner-icecast at xiph.org [mailto:owner-icecast at xiph.org] On Behalf Of
Brandon
Sent: 14 July 2003 21:50
To: icecast at xiph.org
Subject: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream

<p>Just curious....

how longs do you guys think it will be before OGG is a mainstream
format....meaning as widley accepted and supported as mp3, wma, ect ect?

Just wondering because I just added an MP3 music store to my radio station
(www.FightForRock.com), and while I do broadcast in OGG (and several other
formats) I chose to sell music in MP3 formatbased on it being the best
supported compressed audio format. I am toying with the idea of sellign OGG
versions too.

Brandon

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From ross.levis at cchlawbase.co.nz  Mon Jul 14 23:06:03 2003
From: ross.levis at cchlawbase.co.nz (Ross Levis)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:06:03 +1200
Subject: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream
In-Reply-To: <[icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream>
Message-ID: <84C0CDE57EDD0841880993D82051278E14292C@bagheera.internal.cch.co.nz>



Mark Casey wrote:
> I think when the real-time cbr encoding issues are sorted 
> Vorbis (this is my experience with oddcast dsp, winamp and 
> icecast 2 win32, big cpu hog) will start gaining more ground, 

I can't use the managed bitrate option in OddCast on my K6II-500 CPU!
(Overclocked to 525, WinXP Pro,192MB RAM).  I would like to.  Normal VBR
uses about 90% CPU.  This seems too high.  Perhaps some work will be
done on reducing CPU requirements and/or utilizing some CPU extensions
in the future.

Ross.
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From gtgbr at gmx.net  Mon Jul 14 23:26:55 2003
From: gtgbr at gmx.net (gtgbr at gmx.net)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 01:26:55 +0200
Subject: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream
In-Reply-To: <000301c34a4d$adafc260$0200a8c0@zebedee>
Message-ID: <3F133C3F.CEEC11B9@gmx.net>



Mark Casey wrote:
> I think when the real-time cbr encoding issues are sorted Vorbis (this is my
> experience with oddcast dsp, winamp and icecast 2 win32, big cpu hog) will

The bitrate management engine takes lots of power, that's true - but
it's still faster than lame with --alt-preset (imo the only way to make
good MP3s). In any case, a source client should be well-equipped ... you
don't want the stream to drop out just because the box can't do, e.g., a
necessary maintenance task and re-encode fast enough at the same time. A
600 MHz box is pretty much the minimum for reliable streaming - my
k6-3/400 gateway can stream Vorbis VBR at ~80-85% CPU load, but even the
daily maintenance makes it crap out for a short while. If you're serious
about streaming, get a faster box (I'm not, just doing it for fun and
friends every now and then.)

> How long it takes to reach mainstream, I have no idea.. When perhaps the
> majority of hardware players support OGG Vorbis playback and stuff like
> Shoutcast supports Vorbis, then it will probably happen. (lets face facts,

My guess is that Shoutcast gets Ogg Vorbis support when hell freezes
over. Icecast2, as stable and functional as it is already, will probably
be the first and only server to support Vorbis, when it's done. It will
do, i.e. already does, a very good job at that, too. But as long as
Xiph.org herself doesn't get Icecast2 out of the door as a release,
competitors of any kind won't care much. However, I don't mind that very
much, as Xiph's philosophy of "we release when it's done" has proven to
be very good.

It's not that much about mainstream player support (IMHO we already have
that almost sufficiently), it's about the "critical mass" of people who
are "brave" enough to stream Vorbis with Icecast2. It's like a bunch of
sheep that are scared of something. Get a few 'important' sheep to do it
and all others will follow. ;) Once people learn that cool companies
like Virgin Radio don't become poor because of streaming Vorbis, they'll
be less reluctant. After that, users will take the offer and not even
complain about it.

Make an example, stream Vorbis. It's as easy as that.

> the majority of small broadcasters are ignorant of icecast and like all
> human beings are innately lazy, therefore they'll stick with shoutcast.. So
> until shoutcast and its dsp supports vorbis they'll be broadcasting in mp3
> only)

>From my point of view, that's their problem not mine. :) I don't listen
to MP3 streams, I find them mostly awful. It's really exhausting to
listen to them... maybe because my ears/brain have to do too much work
to reassemble the sound back to music. (I'm serious, it gets worse the
more tired I am. :/)

<p>Moritz
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From ross.levis at cchlawbase.co.nz  Mon Jul 14 23:58:31 2003
From: ross.levis at cchlawbase.co.nz (Ross Levis)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:58:31 +1200
Subject: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream
In-Reply-To: <[icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream>
Message-ID: <84C0CDE57EDD0841880993D82051278E14292E@bagheera.internal.cch.co.nz>



gtgbr at gmx.net wrote:
> My guess is that Shoutcast gets Ogg Vorbis support when hell 
> freezes over.

Don't quote me but I believe Shoutcast is switching to MPEG-4 AAC later
this year.

Ross.
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From speedwolf at door.net  Tue Jul 15 01:12:07 2003
From: speedwolf at door.net (Bryan Payne)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 20:12:07 -0500
Subject: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream
In-Reply-To: <84C0CDE57EDD0841880993D82051278E14292E@bagheera.internal.cch.co.nz>
Message-ID: <00c501c34a6e$1ce259c0$6401a8c0@spacialici1s1d>



AAC + I believe is correct.

Bryan

<p>---- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ross Levis" <ross.levis at cchlawbase.co.nz>
To: <icecast at xiph.org>
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 6:58 PM
Subject: RE: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream

<p>gtgbr at gmx.net wrote:
> My guess is that Shoutcast gets Ogg Vorbis support when hell 
> freezes over.

Don't quote me but I believe Shoutcast is switching to MPEG-4 AAC later
this year.

Ross.
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From groups at mediacast1.com  Tue Jul 15 02:16:06 2003
From: groups at mediacast1.com (Dave St John)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 20:16:06 -0600
Subject: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream
In-Reply-To: <00c501c34a6e$1ce259c0$6401a8c0@spacialici1s1d>
Message-ID: <004a01c34a77$1be7de10$7d01a8c0@EAGLENEST>



switching or adding?

Dave St John
Mediacast1 Administration
(720) 641-7586
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bryan Payne" <speedwolf at door.net>
To: <icecast at xiph.org>
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream

<p>> AAC + I believe is correct.
>
> Bryan
>
>
> ---- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ross Levis" <ross.levis at cchlawbase.co.nz>
> To: <icecast at xiph.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 6:58 PM
> Subject: RE: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream
>
>
> gtgbr at gmx.net wrote:
> > My guess is that Shoutcast gets Ogg Vorbis support when hell
> > freezes over.
>
> Don't quote me but I believe Shoutcast is switching to MPEG-4 AAC later
> this year.
>
> Ross.
> --- >8 ----
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> icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/
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>

<p>--- >8 ----
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From arc at indymedia.org  Tue Jul 15 06:40:05 2003
From: arc at indymedia.org (Arc)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 02:40:05 -0400
Subject: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream
In-Reply-To: <84C0CDE57EDD0841880993D82051278E14292C@bagheera.internal.cch.co.nz>
Message-ID: <20030715064005.GD322@selket.nyfss.org>


On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 11:06:03AM +1200, Ross Levis wrote:
> Mark Casey wrote:
> > I think when the real-time cbr encoding issues are sorted 
> > Vorbis (this is my experience with oddcast dsp, winamp and 
> > icecast 2 win32, big cpu hog) will start gaining more ground, 
> 
> I can't use the managed bitrate option in OddCast on my K6II-500 CPU!
> (Overclocked to 525, WinXP Pro,192MB RAM).  I would like to.  Normal VBR
> uses about 90% CPU.  This seems too high.  Perhaps some work will be
> done on reducing CPU requirements and/or utilizing some CPU extensions
> in the future.

That's funny, because we're doing it all the time with Pentium 2's
running at 233mhz.

44100 samplerate, mono, 56k VBR.  ices2. pretty basic setup. no skips.

Prehaps it's an issue with your CPU having poor floating point, or
prehaps its OddCast, or prehaps it was compiled without CPU
optimisations, etc.  But we've been doing it for quite some time quite
successfully with ices2.

furthermore, with my K62 450mhz I've successfully done 44100/stereo
encoding at 128k with ices2, it uses about 90% of the cpu but it's
doable.  Dropping to mono makes it much faster, dropping the bitrate
(56k vs 128k) makes it even faster.  Dropping to 22050 samplerate makes
it dramatically faster.  


--
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From speedwolf at door.net  Tue Jul 15 06:51:50 2003
From: speedwolf at door.net (Bryan Payne)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 01:51:50 -0500
Subject: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream
In-Reply-To: <004a01c34a77$1be7de10$7d01a8c0@EAGLENEST>
Message-ID: <002701c34a9d$91832dc0$6401a8c0@spacialici1s1d>



I believe "Switching" - but don't hold me to that  :)

Bryan

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave St John" <groups at mediacast1.com>
To: <icecast at xiph.org>
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 9:16 PM
Subject: Re: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream

<p>> switching or adding?
>
> Dave St John
> Mediacast1 Administration
> (720) 641-7586
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bryan Payne" <speedwolf at door.net>
> To: <icecast at xiph.org>
> Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 7:12 PM
> Subject: Re: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream
>
>
> > AAC + I believe is correct.
> >
> > Bryan
> >
> >
> > ---- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Ross Levis" <ross.levis at cchlawbase.co.nz>
> > To: <icecast at xiph.org>
> > Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 6:58 PM
> > Subject: RE: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream
> >
> >
> > gtgbr at gmx.net wrote:
> > > My guess is that Shoutcast gets Ogg Vorbis support when hell
> > > freezes over.
> >
> > Don't quote me but I believe Shoutcast is switching to MPEG-4 AAC later
> > this year.
> >
> > Ross.
> > --- >8 ----
> > List archives:  http://www.xiph.org/archives/
> > icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/
> > To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to
> 'icecast-request at xiph.org'
> > containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body.  No subject is
needed.
> > Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered.
> > --- >8 ----
> > List archives:  http://www.xiph.org/archives/
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> 'icecast-request at xiph.org'
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needed.
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> >
>
>
> --- >8 ----
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From msmith at xiph.org  Tue Jul 15 07:07:49 2003
From: msmith at xiph.org (Michael Smith)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:07:49 +1000
Subject: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream
In-Reply-To: <20030715064005.GD322@selket.nyfss.org>
Message-ID: <200307151707.49814.msmith@xiph.org>



On Tuesday 15 July 2003 16:40, Arc wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 11:06:03AM +1200, Ross Levis wrote:
> > Mark Casey wrote:
> > > I think when the real-time cbr encoding issues are sorted
> > > Vorbis (this is my experience with oddcast dsp, winamp and
> > > icecast 2 win32, big cpu hog) will start gaining more ground,
> >
> > I can't use the managed bitrate option in OddCast on my K6II-500 CPU!
> > (Overclocked to 525, WinXP Pro,192MB RAM).  I would like to.  Normal VBR
> > uses about 90% CPU.  This seems too high.  Perhaps some work will be
> > done on reducing CPU requirements and/or utilizing some CPU extensions
> > in the future.
>
> That's funny, because we're doing it all the time with Pentium 2's
> running at 233mhz.
>
> 44100 samplerate, mono, 56k VBR.  ices2. pretty basic setup. no skips.

Note several major things here: you're doing mono rather than stereo (I'm 
assuming that's what the previous poster was using). That's going to be close 
to a doubling of cpu requirements.

You're doing VBR, the other poster said he wished to use CBR. That's about (at 
least on the simple tests I did) double the cpu again (or more).

Finally, the k6 has a relatively poor FPU compared to the P2, per clock. 

That said, I don't think the cpu requirements of vorbis encoding are a 
particularly major issue these days. My main machine (~6 months old, but far 
from the fastest thing available even then) does VBR encoding of 44.1 kHz 
stereo material using under 10% of the cpu. Bitrate management increases that 
to around 20%, but even that's not too bad. 

Mike

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From jan at ca.pri.ee  Tue Jul 15 07:43:03 2003
From: jan at ca.pri.ee (Jan-Erik Moon)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:43:03 +0300
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <20030714144152.GA408@watanabe.kublai.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c34aa4$b92e7f30$697d6ac2@zehr>



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brendan Cully" <brendan at xiph.org>
To: <icecast at xiph.org>
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 5:41 PM
Subject: Re: [icecast] ices 0.3 released

<p>> helper program. You can tell ices where to find these by altering
> PKG_CONFIG_PATH or PATH when running configure (depending on whether
> or not your system has pkgconfig).

But of course! Thanks :)

Jan

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From ross at stationplaylist.com  Tue Jul 15 10:10:55 2003
From: ross at stationplaylist.com (Ross Levis)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:10:55 +1200
Subject: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream
In-Reply-To: <200307151707.49814.msmith@xiph.org>
Message-ID: <008b01c34ab9$612a8e90$4400a8c0@levis3>



Michael Smith wrote:
> Note several major things here: you're doing mono rather than stereo (I'm
> assuming that's what the previous poster was using). That's going to be
close
> to a doubling of cpu requirements.
> You're doing VBR, the other poster said he wished to use CBR. That's about
(at
> least on the simple tests I did) double the cpu again (or more).

Actually, I'm currently using 44100, mono, quality -1 which is using about
80% CPU (K6II-525), including Winamp which uses about 8% without OddCast.  I
would like to restrict the bitrate to 32kb/s for modems without going to
22050 samples but it looks like I will not be able to with this PC.

> Finally, the k6 has a relatively poor FPU compared to the P2, per clock.

Yes, but I didn't think it would be that bad!

Regards,
Ross.

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From mccasey at clara.co.uk  Tue Jul 15 14:27:25 2003
From: mccasey at clara.co.uk (Mark Casey)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:27:25 +0100
Subject: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream
In-Reply-To: <20030715064005.GD322@selket.nyfss.org>
Message-ID: <001601c34add$39cb2bb0$0200a8c0@zebedee>



There is a big, big difference between cbr and vbr, btw. The machine in
question is a Pentium 3 700 oc'ed to 800, 512MB ram, win nt 5.1 (2k and xp
being nt) etc
In an earlier version the oddcast dsp ate up so much cpu time when set at
say 64kbps (for examples sake) 44.1kHz, stereo that the machine became
totally unusable and the winamp task had to be (slowly) ended with task
manager.
Now, currently on the same machine using CBR and so forth winamp with the
oddcast dsp eats between 70-90% cpu, it essentially prevents you from doing
anything since the machine in question was also used as a desktop machine
(purely testing purposes).
If I had this machine setup as say a Gentoo Linux machine dedicated for
realtime encoding I'm sure cpu usage wouldn't be so bad, but still its too
high.
VBR is always a headache for streaming, hence why the majority of people use
CBR.
And I was under the impression that OGG Vorbis was never designed for
samplerates other than 44.1kHz, sure it can encode at other bitrates but to
my knowledge it was always designed for lossy compression of samplerates at
44.1kHz.

Mark

<p>-----Original Message-----
From: owner-icecast at xiph.org [mailto:owner-icecast at xiph.org] On Behalf Of
Arc
Sent: 15 July 2003 07:40
To: icecast at xiph.org
Subject: Re: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream

<p>On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 11:06:03AM +1200, Ross Levis wrote:
> Mark Casey wrote:
> > I think when the real-time cbr encoding issues are sorted
> > Vorbis (this is my experience with oddcast dsp, winamp and 
> > icecast 2 win32, big cpu hog) will start gaining more ground, 
> 
> I can't use the managed bitrate option in OddCast on my K6II-500 CPU! 
> (Overclocked to 525, WinXP Pro,192MB RAM).  I would like to.  Normal 
> VBR uses about 90% CPU.  This seems too high.  Perhaps some work will 
> be done on reducing CPU requirements and/or utilizing some CPU 
> extensions in the future.

That's funny, because we're doing it all the time with Pentium 2's running
at 233mhz.

44100 samplerate, mono, 56k VBR.  ices2. pretty basic setup. no skips.

Prehaps it's an issue with your CPU having poor floating point, or prehaps
its OddCast, or prehaps it was compiled without CPU optimisations, etc.  But
we've been doing it for quite some time quite successfully with ices2.

furthermore, with my K62 450mhz I've successfully done 44100/stereo encoding
at 128k with ices2, it uses about 90% of the cpu but it's doable.  Dropping
to mono makes it much faster, dropping the bitrate (56k vs 128k) makes it
even faster.  Dropping to 22050 samplerate makes it dramatically faster.  


--
Fetch my GPG key from keys.indymedia.org:
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From bcasci at runbox.com  Tue Jul 15 14:51:46 2003
From: bcasci at runbox.com (Brandon)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:51:46 -0400
Subject: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream
In-Reply-To: <001601c34add$39cb2bb0$0200a8c0@zebedee>
Message-ID: <01f601c34ae0$9e28f580$6402a8c0@surfcontrol.com>



I have a 2.3 GHZ Celeron and I'm  streaming in these formats:
-24K mono MP3
-64K Stereo MP3
-OGG stereo Quality 0 (64K-ish)
-WMA 20K
-WMA 64K

I think my average CPU utilization is around 70%

It seems each codect will consume 13%-15% of cpu time, because as I start
and stop each one the cpu utlization will go up or down 13% - 15%

<p><p>----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Casey" <mccasey at clara.co.uk>
To: <icecast at xiph.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 10:27 AM
Subject: RE: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream

<p>There is a big, big difference between cbr and vbr, btw. The machine in
question is a Pentium 3 700 oc'ed to 800, 512MB ram, win nt 5.1 (2k and xp
being nt) etc
In an earlier version the oddcast dsp ate up so much cpu time when set at
say 64kbps (for examples sake) 44.1kHz, stereo that the machine became
totally unusable and the winamp task had to be (slowly) ended with task
manager.
Now, currently on the same machine using CBR and so forth winamp with the
oddcast dsp eats between 70-90% cpu, it essentially prevents you from doing
anything since the machine in question was also used as a desktop machine
(purely testing purposes).
If I had this machine setup as say a Gentoo Linux machine dedicated for
realtime encoding I'm sure cpu usage wouldn't be so bad, but still its too
high.
VBR is always a headache for streaming, hence why the majority of people use
CBR.
And I was under the impression that OGG Vorbis was never designed for
samplerates other than 44.1kHz, sure it can encode at other bitrates but to
my knowledge it was always designed for lossy compression of samplerates at
44.1kHz.

Mark

<p>-----Original Message-----
From: owner-icecast at xiph.org [mailto:owner-icecast at xiph.org] On Behalf Of
Arc
Sent: 15 July 2003 07:40
To: icecast at xiph.org
Subject: Re: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream

<p>On Tue, Jul 15, 2003 at 11:06:03AM +1200, Ross Levis wrote:
> Mark Casey wrote:
> > I think when the real-time cbr encoding issues are sorted
> > Vorbis (this is my experience with oddcast dsp, winamp and
> > icecast 2 win32, big cpu hog) will start gaining more ground,
>
> I can't use the managed bitrate option in OddCast on my K6II-500 CPU!
> (Overclocked to 525, WinXP Pro,192MB RAM).  I would like to.  Normal
> VBR uses about 90% CPU.  This seems too high.  Perhaps some work will
> be done on reducing CPU requirements and/or utilizing some CPU
> extensions in the future.

That's funny, because we're doing it all the time with Pentium 2's running
at 233mhz.

44100 samplerate, mono, 56k VBR.  ices2. pretty basic setup. no skips.

Prehaps it's an issue with your CPU having poor floating point, or prehaps
its OddCast, or prehaps it was compiled without CPU optimisations, etc.  But
we've been doing it for quite some time quite successfully with ices2.

furthermore, with my K62 450mhz I've successfully done 44100/stereo encoding
at 128k with ices2, it uses about 90% of the cpu but it's doable.  Dropping
to mono makes it much faster, dropping the bitrate (56k vs 128k) makes it
even faster.  Dropping to 22050 samplerate makes it dramatically faster.


--
Fetch my GPG key from keys.indymedia.org:
   CA88   DDAB   E1FE   0575   85D6
   FA7A   73AA   B59B [ 5438   6887 ]

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Use GNU Privacy Guard to protect your email, see [http://www.gnupg.org/]

The attachement to this and every email I send is my GPG signature which is
used to verify that I am the sender and it is unmodified by any third party.
You need GNU Privacy Guard installed to verify my GPG signature.

This was important even before our government's war on civil liberties, but
with the USA PAT RIOT Act signed into law it's especially important to
secure our right to communicate freely without federal surveillance.

If you have GNU Privacy Guard, please use it to encrypt and sign any and all
mail you send me.  I can help you in setting up and using encryption to
protect your email as well as host workshops for teaching your group.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From jason at elluzion.net  Tue Jul 15 15:33:19 2003
From: jason at elluzion.net (Jason)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:33:19 -0500
Subject: [icecast] icecast problem
Message-ID: <3F141EBF.7020401@elluzion.net>



When I try to make icecast, I get an error stating "/usr/bin/ld: cannot 
finf -lssl".

I'm pretty sure I have all the libs I need. I was able to install 
icecast 1.3.12 through urpmi, but I want the newer version.

Is there something I can do to resolve this?

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From k.heyes at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue Jul 15 15:59:43 2003
From: k.heyes at blueyonder.co.uk (Karl Heyes)
Date: 15 Jul 2003 16:59:43 +0100
Subject: [icecast] icecast problem
In-Reply-To: <3F141EBF.7020401@elluzion.net>
Message-ID: <1058284783.1110.18.camel@bogus.hackers.club>



On Tue, 2003-07-15 at 16:33, Jason wrote:
> When I try to make icecast, I get an error stating "/usr/bin/ld: cannot 
> finf -lssl".
> 
> I'm pretty sure I have all the libs I need. I was able to install 
> icecast 1.3.12 through urpmi, but I want the newer version.
> 
> Is there something I can do to resolve this?

I'm guessing you haven't installed the openssl packages, you need the
devel package as well if you use distribution packages.

karl.

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From adam at xs4all.nl  Tue Jul 15 17:35:44 2003
From: adam at xs4all.nl (adam)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 19:35:44 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [icecast] on the fly config
Message-ID: <20030715193447.K55628-100000@xs1.xs4all.nl>



hi

can icecast2 add new mount points on the fly without having to restart?

adam

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From k.heyes at blueyonder.co.uk  Tue Jul 15 17:55:02 2003
From: k.heyes at blueyonder.co.uk (Karl Heyes)
Date: 15 Jul 2003 18:55:02 +0100
Subject: [icecast] on the fly config
In-Reply-To: <20030715193447.K55628-100000@xs1.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <1058291702.1110.24.camel@bogus.hackers.club>



On Tue, 2003-07-15 at 18:35, adam wrote:
> hi
> 
> can icecast2 add new mount points on the fly without having to restart?

the source clients provide the mount point, so provided they supply the
source password and login then yes. 

karl.

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From stefan at neufeind.net  Tue Jul 15 18:19:18 2003
From: stefan at neufeind.net (Stefan Neufeind)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 20:19:18 +0200
Subject: [icecast] on the fly config
In-Reply-To: <1058291702.1110.24.camel@bogus.hackers.club>
Message-ID: <3F1461C6.23618.24B5903@localhost>



On 15 Jul 2003 at 18:55, Karl Heyes wrote:

> On Tue, 2003-07-15 at 18:35, adam wrote:
> > can icecast2 add new mount points on the fly without having to
> > restart?
> 
> the source clients provide the mount point, so provided they supply
> the source password and login then yes. 

Maybe he doesn't mean mountpoints in general but "special 
mountpoints", e.g. some mountpoints which relay from a different 
server or so? Well, I guess those features could be added to the 
webinterface Oddsock has just started. Or would there be a 
possibility to change the config and give icecast a SIGHUP? Problem 
might be: On all other mountpoints connected clients shouldn't loose 
their connection.

Anybody got a proposal?
 Stefan
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From mike at linuxlink.com  Tue Jul 15 19:58:25 2003
From: mike at linuxlink.com (mike)
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 14:58:25 -0500
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <20030714102434.C27742@sprout.org>
Message-ID: <3F145CE1.3030504@linuxlink.com>



There is something called ethics.

Matt Boersma wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 13, 2003 at 05:28:12PM -0400, Arc wrote:
> 
>>On Sun, Jul 13, 2003 at 02:27:01PM -0700, Dan Sully wrote:
>>
>>>        I quite agree - it's frustrating to be able to use software that's
>>>        almost there, then have all the development move to a format that 90%
>>>        of the applications/embedded systems don't yet support.
>>
>>I'm sorry, but >90% of software does support Ogg.
> 
> 
> One thing that is *not* accelerating the adoption of ogg is this
> kind of attitude.  I run an online radio station.  We're drooling
> to move to ogg, but there are major tradeoffs:
> - Most listeners will have to upgrade to a new client or
> install a plugin.

<p>
-- 
Michael H. Collins	
http://linuxlink.com

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From msmith at xiph.org  Wed Jul 16 02:17:19 2003
From: msmith at xiph.org (Michael Smith)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:17:19 +1000
Subject: [icecast] OT: OGG in the mainstream
In-Reply-To: <001601c34add$39cb2bb0$0200a8c0@zebedee>
Message-ID: <200307161217.19542.msmith@xiph.org>



> And I was under the impression that OGG Vorbis was never designed for
> samplerates other than 44.1kHz, sure it can encode at other bitrates but to
> my knowledge it was always designed for lossy compression of samplerates at
> 44.1kHz.
>

That's just not true. The early betas were only really tuned for 44.1 kHz, but 
the codec design was _always_ for a much wider range than that, and the 
current release is reasonably well tuned for a fairly wide range of sample 
rates.

Mike

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From msmith at xiph.org  Wed Jul 16 02:18:58 2003
From: msmith at xiph.org (Michael Smith)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:18:58 +1000
Subject: [icecast] on the fly config
In-Reply-To: <3F1461C6.23618.24B5903@localhost>
Message-ID: <200307161218.58403.msmith@xiph.org>



On Wednesday 16 July 2003 04:19, Stefan Neufeind wrote:
> On 15 Jul 2003 at 18:55, Karl Heyes wrote:
> > On Tue, 2003-07-15 at 18:35, adam wrote:
> > > can icecast2 add new mount points on the fly without having to
> > > restart?
> >
> > the source clients provide the mount point, so provided they supply
> > the source password and login then yes.
>
> Maybe he doesn't mean mountpoints in general but "special
> mountpoints", e.g. some mountpoints which relay from a different
> server or so? Well, I guess those features could be added to the
> webinterface Oddsock has just started. Or would there be a
> possibility to change the config and give icecast a SIGHUP? Problem
> might be: On all other mountpoints connected clients shouldn't loose
> their connection.

That should already work - when the config file is reloaded (I think this 
happens on a SIGHUP), new mountpoint definitions are loaded and used.

 Dynamically adding 'normal' mountpoints, of course, has always worked.

Mike

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From rousse at ccr.jussieu.fr  Wed Jul 16 20:41:09 2003
From: rousse at ccr.jussieu.fr (Guillaume Rousse)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 22:41:09 +0200
Subject: [icecast] libshout headers
Message-ID: <200307162241.09274.rousse@ccr.jussieu.fr>



libshout 2.0 install its header file in /usr/include, whereas ices looks for 
/usr/include/shout/shout.h. Either one or the other should get fixed.

[guillomovitch at klama guillomovitch]$ rpm -ql libshout3-devel | grep .h$
/usr/include/shout.h

[guillomovitch at klama guillomovitch]$ rpm -ba rpm/SPECS/ices.spec
[..]
checking shout/shout.h usability... no
checking shout/shout.h presence... no
checking for shout/shout.h... no
configure: error: Could not find a usable libshout

-- 
The speed with which components become obsolete is directly proportional to 
the price of the component. 
	-- Murphy's Computer Laws n?9

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From rousse at ccr.jussieu.fr  Wed Jul 16 20:42:32 2003
From: rousse at ccr.jussieu.fr (Guillaume Rousse)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 22:42:32 +0200
Subject: [icecast] version confusion
In-Reply-To: <20030711155805.GA409@watanabe.kublai.com>
Message-ID: <200307162242.32853.rousse@ccr.jussieu.fr>



Ainsi parlait Brendan Cully :
> I apologise for the confusion, and hope this helps.
Yes, many thanks.

However, i'd still like to have some milestone to package icecast2 rather than 
just an arbitrary CSV snapshot.

-- 
The speed with which components become obsolete is directly proportional to 
the price of the component. 
	-- Murphy's Computer Laws n?9

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From brendan at xiph.org  Thu Jul 17 03:08:30 2003
From: brendan at xiph.org (Brendan Cully)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 23:08:30 -0400
Subject: [icecast] libshout headers
In-Reply-To: <200307162241.09274.rousse@ccr.jussieu.fr>
Message-ID: <20030717030830.GA473@watanabe.kublai.com>



On Wednesday, 16 July 2003 at 22:41, Guillaume Rousse wrote:
> libshout 2.0 install its header file in /usr/include, whereas ices looks for 
> /usr/include/shout/shout.h. Either one or the other should get fixed.
> 
> [guillomovitch at klama guillomovitch]$ rpm -ql libshout3-devel | grep .h$
> /usr/include/shout.h

libshout 2.0 will install its header in
/usr/local/include/shout/shout.h by default. This error is probably the
fault of your RPM. Please take up the issue with whoever created that
package for you.

-b
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From ice at thebasement.org  Thu Jul 17 03:18:48 2003
From: ice at thebasement.org (Keegan Quinn)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2003 20:18:48 -0700
Subject: [icecast] Debian packages: icecast2, libshout, ices2
Message-ID: <20030717031848.GA21426@thebasement.org>


Hello everyone,

I've been maintaining Debian packages (for sid) of icecast2, libshout,
and ices2 for several months now; my production servers run Debian, and
these packages make using icecast on them even more easily manageable.
They've been quite solid and reliable in all of the situations I've
encountered, and I've had nothing but positive reports from a couple of
testers.

Since the libshout 2.0 release just happened, I've been dusting them off
and making final preparations at getting the packages accepted into the
main Debian distribution.  In the process, I've created backports to
Debian's current stable release, 3.0r1 (aka. Woody).  Since I've seen a
couple requests and reports here about people trying to run icecast 2 
on Woody, I thought perhaps others might be interested in these packages.

Backports of the current libogg and libvorbis 1.0.0 packages have also
been provided, since Woody only has 1.0rc3.

They're available at these apt sources:

deb http://rune.thebasement.org/debian stable keegan 
deb-src http://rune.thebasement.org/debian stable keegan

I'll be making new builds regularly, probably weekly.

Thanks,

 - Keegan

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From dachande at gmx.net  Thu Jul 17 09:08:46 2003
From: dachande at gmx.net (Daniel Seebald)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:08:46 +0200
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 released
In-Reply-To: <006b01c34a4d$06c69280$6401a8c0@spacialici1s1d>
Message-ID: <3F16679E.7090909@gmx.net>



Bryan Payne wrote:
> Actually I think there is already allot of mainstream support for the
> format?
> 
> In fact many large Gaming developers including EA and Sierra use the format
> to drive audio in their gamning - there is allot of hardware supporting the
> format as well and many player solutions in place that support it -
> 

Another good example is the Doomsday Engine (www.doomsdayhq.com), a new
Doom Engine where you can play good old Doom 1 and 2 in OpenGL with
High-Res Textures and much more. AND the possibility of using Ogg music
files instead of the traditional MUS lumps. This creates the posibility
to play high-quality music still at a low file size.


-- 
CU... Daniel
...this is Linux Country. If you listen carefully you can hear Windows 
reboot!

http://www.thefront.tk

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From dachande at gmx.net  Thu Jul 17 09:14:08 2003
From: dachande at gmx.net (Daniel Seebald)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 11:14:08 +0200
Subject: [icecast] icecast problem
In-Reply-To: <1058284783.1110.18.camel@bogus.hackers.club>
Message-ID: <3F1668E0.7020003@gmx.net>



Karl Heyes wrote:
> 
> I'm guessing you haven't installed the openssl packages, you need the
> devel package as well if you use distribution packages.
> 
> karl.
> 

btw, why does icecast need openssl-devel for compilation but
actually no ssl encyption is used?


-- 
CU... Daniel
...this is Linux Country. If you listen carefully you can hear Windows 
reboot!

http://www.thefront.tk

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From k.heyes at blueyonder.co.uk  Thu Jul 17 09:25:58 2003
From: k.heyes at blueyonder.co.uk (Karl Heyes)
Date: 17 Jul 2003 10:25:58 +0100
Subject: [icecast] icecast problem
In-Reply-To: <3F1668E0.7020003@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <1058433958.964.10.camel@bogus.hackers.club>



On Thu, 2003-07-17 at 10:14, Daniel Seebald wrote:
> Karl Heyes wrote:
> > 
> > I'm guessing you haven't installed the openssl packages, you need the
> > devel package as well if you use distribution packages.
> > 
> > karl.
> > 
> 
> btw, why does icecast need openssl-devel for compilation but
> actually no ssl encyption is used?

because your icecast has a dependency on libcurl (for YP) and the
libcurl on your system is capable of transferring over https. You maybe
able to get away with not installing the -devel package depending on how
the ssl lib is referenced in libcurl.

karl.

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From stefan at neufeind.net  Thu Jul 17 12:15:36 2003
From: stefan at neufeind.net (Stefan Neufeind)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 14:15:36 +0200
Subject: [icecast] icecast problem
In-Reply-To: <1058433958.964.10.camel@bogus.hackers.club>
Message-ID: <3F16AF88.2578.2F57E3@localhost>



On 17 Jul 2003 at 10:25, Karl Heyes wrote:

> On Thu, 2003-07-17 at 10:14, Daniel Seebald wrote:
> > Karl Heyes wrote:
> > > 
> > > I'm guessing you haven't installed the openssl packages, you need
> > > the devel package as well if you use distribution packages.
> > > 
> > > karl.
> > > 
> > 
> > btw, why does icecast need openssl-devel for compilation but
> > actually no ssl encyption is used?
> 
> because your icecast has a dependency on libcurl (for YP) and the
> libcurl on your system is capable of transferring over https. You
> maybe able to get away with not installing the -devel package
> depending on how the ssl lib is referenced in libcurl.

How about activating SSL-support for streaming? Would it be possible 
to e.g. offer sending data (passwords, stats etc.) to the server via 
SSL but still over access to the streams via http? Or how about 
making a "closed user group" which log into a stream via https and 
need to authenticate (is it possible via http basic auth?) to be able 
to listen to the stream? Just imagining maybe a conference or such 
that might be broadcasted this way to a closed usergroup.
Does anybody rate this useful? Comments please, just a thought.

We've talked about authentication on this list some while ago. And I 
came to the point that maybe for billing-purpose (e.g. authenticating 
a user and billing him for the time he has listened to a concert 
because he needs to pay a few cents per each minute or so) this would 
be nice. But do the players out there support basic http-auth? E.g. 
opening a popup if authentication is required (like a browser) or at 
least using urls like   http://user:pass at 192.168.0.2/stream   ?
Would be quite a cool feature :-) We would need the possibility to 
integrate external authentification/logging possibilities into 
icecast2 but this should be possible to design. And again: In closed 
user groups with auth I would rate https-streaming quite interesting 
:-)))

<p>All the best
 Stefan
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From matt at sprout.org  Thu Jul 17 15:47:09 2003
From: matt at sprout.org (Matt Boersma)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:47:09 -0600
Subject: [icecast] Debian packages: icecast2, libshout, ices2
In-Reply-To: <20030717031848.GA21426@thebasement.org>
Message-ID: <20030717094709.A14311@sprout.org>


On Wed, Jul 16, 2003 at 08:18:48PM -0700, Keegan Quinn wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I've been maintaining Debian packages (for sid) of icecast2, libshout,
> and ices2 for several months now

Thank you, thank you, a million times, Keegan.  Debian 3.0r1 is our
server platform too, and I'm glad to use official .deb files instead
of building myself.  Your work is very much appreciated!

Matt

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From jack at xiph.org  Thu Jul 17 15:55:04 2003
From: jack at xiph.org (Jack Moffitt)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 09:55:04 -0600
Subject: [icecast] Debian packages: icecast2, libshout, ices2
In-Reply-To: <20030717031848.GA21426@thebasement.org>
Message-ID: <20030717155504.GF18951@i.cantcode.com>



> I've been maintaining Debian packages (for sid) of icecast2, libshout,
> and ices2 for several months now; my production servers run Debian, and
> these packages make using icecast on them even more easily manageable.
> They've been quite solid and reliable in all of the situations I've
> encountered, and I've had nothing but positive reports from a couple of
> testers.

Please speak to Ralph Giles <giles at xiph.org> about obtaining commit
access to CVS.  We should check in your debian/ dir into the official
tree and that way we can be sure to sync releases.  Also people using CVS
snapshots will be able to build their own debs.

Are you planning on packaging ices 0.3 as well?

jack.
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From dachande at gmx.net  Thu Jul 17 22:24:42 2003
From: dachande at gmx.net (Daniel Seebald)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 00:24:42 +0200
Subject: [icecast] icecast problem
In-Reply-To: <3F16AF88.2578.2F57E3@localhost>
Message-ID: <3F17222A.1020102@gmx.net>



As far as I know, Winamp does support basic http-auth.

Stefan Neufeind wrote:

> We've talked about authentication on this list some while ago. And I 
> came to the point that maybe for billing-purpose (e.g. authenticating 
> a user and billing him for the time he has listened to a concert 
> because he needs to pay a few cents per each minute or so) this would 
> be nice. But do the players out there support basic http-auth? E.g. 
> opening a popup if authentication is required (like a browser) or at 
> least using urls like   http://user:pass at 192.168.0.2/stream   ?
> Would be quite a cool feature :-) We would need the possibility to 
> integrate external authentification/logging possibilities into 
> icecast2 but this should be possible to design. And again: In closed 
> user groups with auth I would rate https-streaming quite interesting 
> :-)))
> 
> 
> All the best
>  Stefan


-- 
CU... Daniel
...this is Linux Country. If you listen carefully you can hear Windows 
reboot!

http://www.thefront.tk

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From ice at wasteland.respond2.com  Thu Jul 17 23:53:46 2003
From: ice at wasteland.respond2.com (Keegan Quinn)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 16:53:46 -0700
Subject: [icecast] Debian packages: icecast2, libshout, ices2
In-Reply-To: <20030717155504.GF18951@i.cantcode.com>
Message-ID: <20030717235346.GA9786@wasteland.respond2.com>


On Thu, Jul 17, 2003 at 09:55:04AM -0600, Jack Moffitt wrote:
> Please speak to Ralph Giles <giles at xiph.org> about obtaining commit
> access to CVS.  We should check in your debian/ dir into the official
> tree and that way we can be sure to sync releases.  Also people using CVS
> snapshots will be able to build their own debs.

Well...  Thanks!  I've been maintaining my own Subversion repository for
the packaging stuff, but this would certainly make things easier for
bleeding-edge users, and release synchronization is definitely a good
thing.  I've sent Ralph a quick message.

> Are you planning on packaging ices 0.3 as well?

I had not previously, because I don't personally have any need for MP3
streaming, since Ogg Vorbis is working so well.  :)  I've sent a quick
note to a Debian developer who had expressed interest in the past; if he
is no longer interested, I'll make up some packages myself.

Thanks again,

 - Keegan

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From telmnstr at 757.org  Fri Jul 18 01:16:08 2003
From: telmnstr at 757.org (Ethan)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 21:16:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <20030717235346.GA9786@wasteland.respond2.com>
Message-ID: <20030717210601.V6071-100000@users.757.org>



Hello, I'm a long time user of Icecast. We currently run 12 streams on
Icecast 1.x (Mp3). I plan to expand this to 20 streems soon. They are all
low bitrate community service.

Recently some friends and myself came across the thought of actually
generating our own content. Music, talk, etc.

I've been running the ideas of the automation setup that would be required
to do such a thing. I used to have a low power FM station (until the FCC
said stop) so I have some knowldge of doing real audio. Plus someone
involved on the project has commercial station experience.

Here are some of the issues I am trying to contemplate, and how to solve
them with Icecast:

First:

Ogg/Vorbis. I've always avoided it because it is still non standard. I
know the mp3 capable Icecast is depreciated. Is Ogg/Vorbis supported in
Windows Media Player 7-8 or newer? By this, I mean either it immediately
works or automatically downloads the codec. Most internet users won't ever
bother to manually download and install codecs. I realize the later Winamp
would support it. RealPlayer? The Apple QuickTime player?

Second:

Trying to cut back and forth between local playlists of MP3s, local live
content and remote fed content seems like a challenge. My current thought
is to have one system that plays audio that is linked to one or more
computers that encode the audio. This way when switching between local
content and remote content, the stream isn't interrupted and the listeners
aren't dumped?

But then comes the issue of the id3 tags. Is there any ways to trigger the
darkice encoder to "update" the text on the player on the fly?

If I had 1 icecast server acting as a relay, connecting to a 2nd one,
could I switch between "2nd ones" and not interrupt the listener?

OOOOOO

Wait. Maybe if we could trick it into hitting a "file" in the playlist
that is being written real time, that could work.....

<p>Anyone have experience trying to push Icecast to do all of this?

<p><p><p><p>--- >8 ----
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From msmith at xiph.org  Fri Jul 18 03:06:11 2003
From: msmith at xiph.org (Michael Smith)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:06:11 +1000
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <20030717210601.V6071-100000@users.757.org>
Message-ID: <200307181306.11659.msmith@xiph.org>



On Friday 18 July 2003 11:16, Ethan wrote:
> Hello, I'm a long time user of Icecast. We currently run 12 streams on
> Icecast 1.x (Mp3). I plan to expand this to 20 streems soon. They are all
> low bitrate community service.
>
> Recently some friends and myself came across the thought of actually
> generating our own content. Music, talk, etc.
>
> I've been running the ideas of the automation setup that would be required
> to do such a thing. I used to have a low power FM station (until the FCC
> said stop) so I have some knowldge of doing real audio. Plus someone
> involved on the project has commercial station experience.
>
> Here are some of the issues I am trying to contemplate, and how to solve
> them with Icecast:
>
> First:
>
> Ogg/Vorbis. I've always avoided it because it is still non standard. I
> know the mp3 capable Icecast is depreciated. Is Ogg/Vorbis supported in
> Windows Media Player 7-8 or newer? By this, I mean either it immediately
> works or automatically downloads the codec. Most internet users won't ever
> bother to manually download and install codecs. I realize the later Winamp
> would support it. RealPlayer? The Apple QuickTime player?

Icecast2 is fully mp3 capable as well, calling 1.x "the mp3 capable icecast" 
indicates you didn't realise that. It also supports other (better) formats as 
well, of course... By the way, you were looking for the word "deprecated", 
not "depreciated" (which is a real word, but means something entirely 
different). So anyway, you can use mp3 AND vorbis simultaneously with 
icecast2.

vorbis is supported in WMP by external plugins - they're not built in, and not 
auto-downloaded.
There is a real plugin, it will soon (but not yet, afaik) be available from 
the auto-download servers.
iTunes doesn't support it. 

Most of the more commonly used players have support (though how good the 
support is varies). The main lack is iTunes - many mac users use it, and 
there's no support.

>
> Second:
>
> Trying to cut back and forth between local playlists of MP3s, local live
> content and remote fed content seems like a challenge. My current thought
> is to have one system that plays audio that is linked to one or more
> computers that encode the audio. This way when switching between local
> content and remote content, the stream isn't interrupted and the listeners
> aren't dumped?

That's one approach that requires little support from the software, and should 
work fine. More infrastructure neccesary, obviously.

>
> But then comes the issue of the id3 tags. Is there any ways to trigger the
> darkice encoder to "update" the text on the player on the fly?

This is supported by icecast (it doesn't use id3 tags for this, but most of 
the source encoders get the metadata from id3 tags originally), I'm not sure 
about darkice. It's pretty easy to add this sort of thing, all the hard bits 
here are done in icecast. 

<p>>
> If I had 1 icecast server acting as a relay, connecting to a 2nd one,
> could I switch between "2nd ones" and not interrupt the listener?

Not precisely. What you can do (with icecast2) is:
    server1: /relay-mount1 <---- server2
           : /relay-mount2 <----- server3

In this setup, you might dynamically add server3/relay-mount2, as your "new 
2nd one". Then, you can dynamically switch users from /relay-mount1 to 
/relay-mount2, without interrupting the listeners. Then you can drop 
server2/relay-mount1. 

The above is not well tested, however, and it may interact badly with metadata 
support. If so, this should be fixed.

>
> OOOOOO
>
> Wait. Maybe if we could trick it into hitting a "file" in the playlist
> that is being written real time, that could work.....

That may also work, depending on your source program (I haven't used darkice, 
I'm not sure of its exact capabilities).

>
>
> Anyone have experience trying to push Icecast to do all of this?

Not on live systems, but I've done similar things on internal tests.

Mike

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From ross at stationplaylist.com  Fri Jul 18 04:10:12 2003
From: ross at stationplaylist.com (Ross Levis)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 16:10:12 +1200
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <20030717210601.V6071-100000@users.757.org>
Message-ID: <00f401c34ce2$7c2e8810$4400a8c0@levis3>



Ethan wrote:
> Trying to cut back and forth between local playlists of MP3s, local live
> content and remote fed content seems like a challenge. My current thought
> is to have one system that plays audio that is linked to one or more
> computers that encode the audio.

That is the proper way to do it.  Keep the audio production separate to the
broadcast.  The challenge will be updating the playing now details.  It
should be possible but others will need to help you out with that.  To plug
my own radio automation/live assist software, StationPlaylist Studio
(Windows only) can output the current playing file to a text file in any
format you like (text, xml, html) which could be read by some process on the
PC encoding the stream.

Regards,
Ross Levis
http://www.stationplaylist.com

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From stefan at neufeind.net  Fri Jul 18 08:05:55 2003
From: stefan at neufeind.net (Stefan Neufeind)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 10:05:55 +0200
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <200307181306.11659.msmith@xiph.org>
Message-ID: <3F17C683.21929.F7EE0@localhost>



On 18 Jul 2003 at 13:06, Michael Smith wrote:

> On Friday 18 July 2003 11:16, Ethan wrote:
> > If I had 1 icecast server acting as a relay, connecting to a 2nd
> > one, could I switch between "2nd ones" and not interrupt the
> > listener?
> 
> Not precisely. What you can do (with icecast2) is:
>     server1: /relay-mount1 <---- server2
>            : /relay-mount2 <----- server3
> 
> In this setup, you might dynamically add server3/relay-mount2, as your
> "new 2nd one". Then, you can dynamically switch users from
> /relay-mount1 to /relay-mount2, without interrupting the listeners.
> Then you can drop server2/relay-mount1. 
> 
> The above is not well tested, however, and it may interact badly with
> metadata support. If so, this should be fixed.

How would you "switch" the users, I mean on the fly? Rewrite the 
configs so that you define the mountpoint from with the main server 
relays anew and give icecast2 a SIGHUP to re-read config?
Anybody tried such things in practice?

> > Anyone have experience trying to push Icecast to do all of this?
> 
> Not on live systems, but I've done similar things on internal tests.

Together with this topic I might bring up the topic of a radio 
automation system. Maybe there are some tools out there, freely 
available? I don't want to / can't purchase a commercial system for 
3000$ or something to do automation. But it should support things 
like automatic fading based on the songs (endings / beginnings of a 
song), be able to use categories to build a well-balanced playlist, 
play jingles from time to time etc. Also a Linux-solution for 
combining this with live-talk (moderation) would be really much 
appreciated. Does somebody know of any such solution out there?
I heard from time to time that many people of you are doing >10 
streams. Do you just use playlists - or maybe tools like the above 
mentioned to have fading between tracks etc. to make it sound better?

  Stefan
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From ross at stationplaylist.com  Fri Jul 18 08:49:05 2003
From: ross at stationplaylist.com (Ross Levis)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 20:49:05 +1200
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <3F17C683.21929.F7EE0@localhost>
Message-ID: <012301c34d09$71f03d40$4400a8c0@levis3>



Stefan Neufeind wrote:
> I don't want to / can't purchase a commercial system for
> 3000$ or something to do automation. But it should support things
> like automatic fading based on the songs (endings / beginnings of a
> song), be able to use categories to build a well-balanced playlist,
> play jingles from time to time etc.

I don't know if you read my earlier reply but my solution does all of the
above for only US$142.20.

> Also a Linux-solution

Can't help with that, however.  Windows only.

Regards,
Ross Levis
http://www.stationplaylist.com

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From telmnstr at 757.org  Fri Jul 18 09:26:31 2003
From: telmnstr at 757.org (Ethan)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 05:26:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <3F17C683.21929.F7EE0@localhost>
Message-ID: <20030718051844.X8468-100000@users.757.org>



> How would you "switch" the users, I mean on the fly? Rewrite the
> configs so that you define the mountpoint from with the main server
> relays anew and give icecast2 a SIGHUP to re-read config?
> Anybody tried such things in practice?

I currently do something like that (I kill and restart icecast every night
at midnight so the record-to-file script can change the config to update
the current date...). It knocks users off.

> Together with this topic I might bring up the topic of a radio
> automation system. Maybe there are some tools out there, freely
> available? I don't want to / can't purchase a commercial system for
> 3000$ or something to do automation. But it should support things
> like automatic fading based on the songs (endings / beginnings of a
> song), be able to use categories to build a well-balanced playlist,
> play jingles from time to time etc.

I've looked around for a unix solution and haven't found much. I was
thinking about trying to use a system with a soundcard or three, and maybe
a midi controlled mixer (I think MOTU made a 1u rackmount midi controlled
8 stereo port mixer or such). Not really an elegant solution though, but
we could make a table that has the song name and weather or not to do a
cross fade or a hard cut (some songs end on a cymbal crash or whatever).

I was looking at NetJukebox or such, some php based playlist builder.
Figured if we categorized stuff that would be okay, but that would require
manually adding commercials and such.

> Also a Linux-solution for
> combining this with live-talk (moderation) would be really much
> appreciated. Does somebody know of any such solution out there?

We thought long and hard, and the decision was if we were ever to do a
system where people could manipulate the station from remote (over
broadband) we would probably push to use web based interface for cueing up
the "decks" and a SSH/Curses based "deck" interface that way the
responsiveness is QUICK. There is still the issue that if streaming mp3
was used for the DJ voice over then the buffers would have to be nearly
eliminated in order to get rid fo the delay. I think it would be rough.

> I heard from time to time that many people of you are doing >10
> streams. Do you just use playlists - or maybe tools like the above
> mentioned to have fading between tracks etc. to make it sound better?

We are using it for local police / fire / rescue / air traffic type of
feeds. I just got two new (used) computers that have 16 PCI slots each.
Got 4 sound cards working in one, and monday we are going to try to get it
up to 10 in one system (which is at the point that there isn't much CPU
left, darkice @ the low bitrate at 0.8 quality *SHOULD* be able to do 10
streams on the PIII-600). Right now we have 4 Pentium II-266's each with
FreeBSD and 3 sound cards.

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From telmnstr at 757.org  Fri Jul 18 09:33:24 2003
From: telmnstr at 757.org (Ethan)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 05:33:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <200307181306.11659.msmith@xiph.org>
Message-ID: <20030718052637.T8468-100000@users.757.org>



> Icecast2 is fully mp3 capable as well, calling 1.x "the mp3 capable icecast"
> indicates you didn't realise that. It also supports other (better) formats as
> well, of course... By the way, you were looking for the word "deprecated",
> not "depreciated" (which is a real word, but means something entirely
> different). So anyway, you can use mp3 AND vorbis simultaneously with
> icecast2.

Didn't know Icecast2 could do mp3. I would definitly go for the dual
stream feature too (I know in the icecast config you can put multiple
encoder entries). I could be wrong, and I could be using Icecast2... It
has been a while since I set it up.... it has been pretty stable
considering the abuse we give it :-)

> vorbis is supported in WMP by external plugins - they're not built in, and not
> auto-downloaded.
> There is a real plugin, it will soon (but not yet, afaik) be available from
> the auto-download servers.
> iTunes doesn't support it.

Ouch. Is the Vorbis codec "finalized" ? I saw some talk that they keep
improving it. If there is backwards compatibility then that is fine. Maybe
if we request iTunes add Vorbis support Apple would implement it?

> the source encoders get the metadata from id3 tags originally), I'm not sure
> about darkice. It's pretty easy to add this sort of thing, all the hard bits
> here are done in icecast.

Okay, in the case with using a live input (ADC) ... I haven't looked at
the latest darkice to see if the text thing has been updated.

> Not precisely. What you can do (with icecast2) is:
>     server1: /relay-mount1 <---- server2
>            : /relay-mount2 <----- server3
>
> In this setup, you might dynamically add server3/relay-mount2, as your "new
> 2nd one". Then, you can dynamically switch users from /relay-mount1 to
> /relay-mount2, without interrupting the listeners. Then you can drop
> server2/relay-mount1.
> The above is not well tested, however, and it may interact badly with metadata
> support. If so, this should be fixed.

Cool I will have to try it. Going to scrounge up some hardware in the next
couple of weeks and build a few systems to experiment with.

> That may also work, depending on your source program (I haven't used darkice,
> I'm not sure of its exact capabilities).

It gets one line of text in there (the title or what not) but I haven't
seen the ability to do multiple lines (like digitially imported and others
do) or update it real time. I guess I could ask the author, but I think he
monitors this list :-)

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From ross at stationplaylist.com  Fri Jul 18 09:43:01 2003
From: ross at stationplaylist.com (Ross Levis)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:43:01 +1200
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <20030718051844.X8468-100000@users.757.org>
Message-ID: <013101c34d10$fab04f60$4400a8c0@levis3>



Ethan wrote:
> I was looking at NetJukebox or such, some php based playlist builder.
> Figured if we categorized stuff that would be okay, but that would require
> manually adding commercials and such.

If there was a demand I could fairly easily convert our StationPlaylist
Creator software to linux, which is our music/spot scheduler/playlist
creator.  It has artist & song repeat protection etc.  I've had experience
doing this when I converted my free WinVorbis encoder/tagger to linux and
created Vorbix.  http://winvorbis.stationplaylist.com.

We couldn't convert our Studio playout system, however, as it relies on
Winamp v2.

Regards,
Ross Levis
http://www.stationplaylist.com

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From telmnstr at 757.org  Fri Jul 18 10:08:02 2003
From: telmnstr at 757.org (Ethan)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 06:08:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <200307181306.11659.msmith@xiph.org>
Message-ID: <20030718060702.I8649-100000@users.757.org>



> well, of course... By the way, you were looking for the word "deprecated",
> not "depreciated" (which is a real word, but means something entirely
> different). So anyway, you can use mp3 AND vorbis simultaneously with

Oh yes, the keyboard on my notebook is getting weak. N is normally the
culprit. Instead of "pine" for email I'm forever getting pie not found.

In this case i was missing from depreciated :-)

                                        -- Ethan

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From chrisg1 at umbc.edu  Fri Jul 18 16:07:12 2003
From: chrisg1 at umbc.edu (Chris G Moguta)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:07:12 -0400
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <[icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)>
Message-ID: <3F1B36F9@webmail.umbc.edu>



>vorbis is supported in WMP by external plugins - they're not built in, and 
not
>auto-downloaded.
>There is a real plugin, it will soon (but not yet, afaik) be available from
>the auto-download servers.
>iTunes doesn't support it.

Where is this WiMP plugin that supports Icecast2 Vorbis streams?  I would be 
very much interested in that.

And where also is the Real plugin?

- Chris

______________________________________________________________
"Time & Space: A Tribute to Yasunori Mitsuda"
Hail to the composer of Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, & Xenogears.
www.OneUpStudios.com

"Project Majestic Mix: SQUAREDANCE"
Your favorite SQUARESOFT tunes... in dance style!
www.MajesticMix.com

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From oddsock at oddsock.org  Fri Jul 18 16:14:54 2003
From: oddsock at oddsock.org (oddsock)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 11:14:54 -0500
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <3F1B36F9@webmail.umbc.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030718111035.02cb68f8@www.oddsock.org>



At 12:07 PM 7/18/2003 -0400, you wrote:

>Where is this WiMP plugin that supports Icecast2 Vorbis streams?  I would be
>very much interested in that.
the current windows media plugin (which is a direct show filter) does not 
currently support vorbis streams, only local files.  This filter (actually 
a set of filters) was written by Tobias Waldvogel.  Tobias has halted 
development on these filters and has graciously donated the source code to 
xiph.  You can get the binary versions of these filters here -> 
http://tobias.everwicked.com/oggds.htm

Xiph does not currently have binary versions built as yet.

oddsock

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From chrisg1 at umbc.edu  Fri Jul 18 16:50:48 2003
From: chrisg1 at umbc.edu (Chris G Moguta)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 12:50:48 -0400
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <[icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)>
Message-ID: <3F1B57DB@webmail.umbc.edu>



>>Where is this WiMP plugin that supports Icecast2 Vorbis streams?  I would be
>>very much interested in that.
>the current windows media plugin (which is a direct show filter) does not
>currently support vorbis streams, only local files.  This filter (actually
>a set of filters) was written by Tobias Waldvogel.  Tobias has halted
>development on these filters and has graciously donated the source code to
>xiph.  You can get the binary versions of these filters here ->
>http://tobias.everwicked.com/oggds.htm

If it can't decode Vorbis streams, then it's not much use to me. =/
Is there anyone working on modifying the source so that Icecast2 Vorbis 
streams can be played?

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From gshang at uq.net.au  Fri Jul 18 22:42:45 2003
From: gshang at uq.net.au (Geoff Shang)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 2003 08:42:45 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <3F17C683.21929.F7EE0@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.56.0307190835560.27925@data.home>



On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, Stefan Neufeind wrote:

> Together with this topic I might bring up the topic of a radio
> automation system. Maybe there are some tools out there, freely
> available? I don't want to / can't purchase a commercial system for
> 3000$ or something to do automation. But it should support things
> like automatic fading based on the songs (endings / beginnings of a
> song), be able to use categories to build a well-balanced playlist,
> play jingles from time to time etc. Also a Linux-solution for
> combining this with live-talk (moderation) would be really much
> appreciated. Does somebody know of any such solution out there?

Yes but it's not yet released.  A guy I know has a great system that does
all this.  It's currently used to power the automated streams at
www.acbradio.org and his own station at www.bigplanetradio.com.  In
addition to what you mention, it also does narrow and wideband compression
and can read and broadcast in mp3 and ogg vorbis.  It's not currently
available to the public because he has to do a lot of paperwork for his
employer in order to release it, and it's still got some bugs and features
to address.  But it's a great system and it works well.  I know a lot of
you are looking for such a tool, so I'll make sure that you all hear about
it when it's available to the public.

Geoff.

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From morgang at newlifemedia.org  Sat Jul 19 02:51:38 2003
From: morgang at newlifemedia.org (Morgan Grammer)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2003 21:51:38 -0500
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <20030718051844.X8468-100000@users.757.org>
Message-ID: <!~!AAAAAPzQUHajBMtBlB2mPV54EjhEPTsA@newlifemedia.org>


Out of curiousity, which sound cards are you using, and on what OS?

>We are using it for local police / fire / rescue / air traffic type of
>feeds. I just got two new (used) computers that have 16 PCI slots each.
>Got 4 sound cards working in one, and monday we are going to try to get it
>up to 10 in one system (which is at the point that there isn't much CPU
>left, darkice @ the low bitrate at 0.8 quality *SHOULD* be able to do 10
>streams on the PIII-600). Right now we have 4 Pentium II-266's each with
>FreeBSD and 3 sound cards.

<p>
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From rousse at ccr.jussieu.fr  Sun Jul 20 12:52:01 2003
From: rousse at ccr.jussieu.fr (Guillaume Rousse)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:52:01 +0200
Subject: Fwd: Re: [icecast] version confusion
Message-ID: <200307201452.01171.rousse@ccr.jussieu.fr>



Sent again, as the original one seems to get lost in cyberspace...

----------  Message transmis  ----------

Subject: Re: [icecast] version confusion
Date: Mercredi 16 Juillet 2003 22:42
From: Guillaume Rousse <rousse at ccr.jussieu.fr>
To: icecast at xiph.org

Ainsi parlait Brendan Cully :
> I apologise for the confusion, and hope this helps.

Yes, many thanks.

However, i'd still like to have some milestone to package icecast2 rather
 than just an arbitrary CSV snapshot.

--
The speed with which components become obsolete is directly proportional to
the price of the component.
	-- Murphy's Computer Laws n?9

-------------------------------------------------------

-- 
If a program actually fits in memory and has enough disk space, it is 
guaranteed to crash. 
	-- Murphy's Computer Laws n?5

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From rousse at ccr.jussieu.fr  Sun Jul 20 12:54:27 2003
From: rousse at ccr.jussieu.fr (Guillaume Rousse)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 14:54:27 +0200
Subject: [icecast] Fwd: libshout headers
Message-ID: <200307201454.27182.rousse@ccr.jussieu.fr>



Sent again, as original seems to get lost in cyberspace.

BTW, this is not the sole compilation problem in ices.
src/ices_config.c use the followind includes:
#include <parser.h>
#include <xmlmemory.h>
whereas libmxl includes are in /usr/include/libxml

----------  Message transmis  ----------

Subject: libshout headers
Date: Mercredi 16 Juillet 2003 22:41
From: Guillaume Rousse <rousse at ccr.jussieu.fr>
To: icecast at xiph.org

libshout 2.0 install its header file in /usr/include, whereas ices looks for
/usr/include/shout/shout.h. Either one or the other should get fixed.

[guillomovitch at klama guillomovitch]$ rpm -ql libshout3-devel | grep .h$
/usr/include/shout.h

[guillomovitch at klama guillomovitch]$ rpm -ba rpm/SPECS/ices.spec
[..]
checking shout/shout.h usability... no
checking shout/shout.h presence... no
checking for shout/shout.h... no
configure: error: Could not find a usable libshout

--
The speed with which components become obsolete is directly proportional to
the price of the component.
	-- Murphy's Computer Laws n?9

-------------------------------------------------------

-- 
Software bugs are impossible to detect by anybody except the end user. 
	-- Murphy's Computer Laws n?10

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From kristof.p at fce.vutbr.cz  Sun Jul 20 13:27:24 2003
From: kristof.p at fce.vutbr.cz (Krištof Petr)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:27:24 +0200
Subject: [icecast] RPM packages for libshout, ices, icecast
Message-ID: <3F1A98BC.1030103@fce.vutbr.cz>



Hi all,

I just updated my packages for RedHat-8.0.
Using these packages year about on several machines.

It should will run on anothers rpm based distros
and should be easy to rebuild package.
All is done simple and generally way.

Any feedback welcome.

Petr

ftp://crash.fce.vutbr.cz/pub/linux/libshout/  (2.0 final)
ftp://crash.fce.vutbr.cz/pub/linux/ices/  (2.0 beta)
ftp://crash.fce.vutbr.cz/pub/linux/icecast/ (2.0 alpha)

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From msmith at xiph.org  Mon Jul 21 02:14:55 2003
From: msmith at xiph.org (Michael Smith)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:14:55 +1000
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <3F17C683.21929.F7EE0@localhost>
Message-ID: <200307211214.55262.msmith@xiph.org>



> How would you "switch" the users, I mean on the fly? Rewrite the
> configs so that you define the mountpoint from with the main server
> relays anew and give icecast2 a SIGHUP to re-read config?
> Anybody tried such things in practice?

Using the admin interface (web-based) - it has a way to explicitly move all 
clients from one mountpoint to another.

Mike

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From msmith at xiph.org  Mon Jul 21 02:17:04 2003
From: msmith at xiph.org (Michael Smith)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:17:04 +1000
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <20030718052637.T8468-100000@users.757.org>
Message-ID: <200307211217.04161.msmith@xiph.org>



> > vorbis is supported in WMP by external plugins - they're not built in,
> > and not auto-downloaded.
> > There is a real plugin, it will soon (but not yet, afaik) be available
> > from the auto-download servers.
> > iTunes doesn't support it.
>
> Ouch. Is the Vorbis codec "finalized" ? I saw some talk that they keep
> improving it. If there is backwards compatibility then that is fine. Maybe
> if we request iTunes add Vorbis support Apple would implement it?

Yes, the vorbis format is definately finalised (has been for well over a year, 
now). We've published the spec ourselves, but we're also persuing publication 
as an RFC, etc. While the encoder will continue to be improved, existing 
decoders will work without modification.

The more people that ask Apple for support the better, I suppose - go ahead 
and ask them!

Mike

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From daniel at electricrain.com  Mon Jul 21 03:28:45 2003
From: daniel at electricrain.com (Dan Sully)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 20:28:45 -0700
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <200307211217.04161.msmith@xiph.org>
Message-ID: <20030721032845.GA12125@electricrain.com>



* Michael Smith <msmith at xiph.org> shaped the electrons to say...

> The more people that ask Apple for support the better, I suppose - go ahead and ask them!

FYI - Apple ('s lawyers) believes that Ogg/Vorbis is patent encumbered, and don't want to take the risk.

Don't shoot the messenger.

-D

-- 
Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.
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From arc at indymedia.org  Mon Jul 21 03:38:46 2003
From: arc at indymedia.org (Arc)
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2003 23:38:46 -0400
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <20030721032845.GA12125@electricrain.com>
Message-ID: <20030721033846.GX322@selket.nyfss.org>


On Sun, Jul 20, 2003 at 08:28:45PM -0700, Dan Sully wrote:
> * Michael Smith <msmith at xiph.org> shaped the electrons to say...
> 
> > The more people that ask Apple for support the better, I suppose - go ahead and ask them!
> 
> FYI - Apple ('s lawyers) believes that Ogg/Vorbis is patent encumbered, and don't want to take the risk.
> 
> Don't shoot the messenger.

Yea more propiganda.. they wont support Ogg cause they're afraid it may
not be free, yet will whole-heartedly support MPEG-4.  Of course, the
fact that they've got a rep on the MPEG group's board has nothing to do
with it...

<p>
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From daleg at elemental.org  Mon Jul 21 04:23:47 2003
From: daleg at elemental.org (Dale Ghent)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 00:23:47 -0400
Subject: [icecast] Patch to add User-Agent to libshout
Message-ID: <1FA1018E-BB33-11D7-B17B-000393A47680@elemental.org>



Just a nifty thing to have for icecast server access logs... diff 
against CVS HEAD is attached.

<p>


Index: configure.in
===================================================================
RCS file: /usr/local/cvsroot/libshout/configure.in,v
retrieving revision 1.65
diff -u -r1.65 configure.in
--- configure.in	13 Jul 2003 16:36:37 -0000	1.65
+++ configure.in	21 Jul 2003 04:20:22 -0000
@@ -65,7 +65,7 @@
                 ;;
         esac
 else
-        XIPH_CFLAGS="-Wall -ffast-math -fsigned-char"
+        XIPH_CFLAGS="-Wall -ffast-math -fsigned-char -DVERSION=${SHOUT_VERSION}"
         AC_DEFINE(_GNU_SOURCE, ,[Define if you have POSIX and GNU specifications])
         DEBUG="-g"
         PROFILE="-pg -g"
Index: src/shout.c
===================================================================
RCS file: /usr/local/cvsroot/libshout/src/shout.c,v
retrieving revision 1.48
diff -u -r1.48 shout.c
--- src/shout.c	13 Jul 2003 16:31:20 -0000	1.48
+++ src/shout.c	21 Jul 2003 04:20:22 -0000
@@ -756,7 +756,7 @@
         char *auth;
         char *ai;
 
-	if (!sock_write(self->socket, "SOURCE %s HTTP/1.0\r\n", self->mount))
+	if (!sock_write(self->socket, "SOURCE %s HTTP/1.0\r\nUser-Agent: libshout/%s\r\n", self->mount, VERSION))
                 return SHOUTERR_SOCKET;
 
         if (self->password && (auth = http_basic_authorization(self))) {





<p><p>/ek
http://elektronkind.org/
Psytrance: it's post-grad school for ravers.

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From daleg at elemental.org  Mon Jul 21 04:45:19 2003
From: daleg at elemental.org (Dale Ghent)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 00:45:19 -0400
Subject: [icecast] [PATCH] Fix TZ in access log
Message-ID: <21596D2D-BB36-11D7-B17B-000393A47680@elemental.org>



Current (and even icecast 1.3) icecast strftime() format option is to 
specify "%z" for gathering the timezone value for use in the logs. This 
isn't POSIX. The true token for standard strftime() timezone value is 
%Z. This patch fixes that.

Without it, your log entries *may* look like this:

66.93.53.158 - - [21/Jul/2003:00:36:57 %z] "GET /full-on HTTP/1.1" 200 
31554203 "-" "iTunes/4.0 (Macintosh; N; PPC)" 1979

note the "%z" is passed as-is because Solaris strftime() at least does 
not recognise that token. It expects %Z, which is what it seems glibc 
expects as well (but it happens to support %z for a different 
non-standard parameter.)

<p>


Index: src/logging.h
===================================================================
RCS file: /usr/local/cvsroot/icecast/src/logging.h,v
retrieving revision 1.8
diff -u -r1.8 logging.h
--- src/logging.h	16 Jul 2003 19:41:59 -0000	1.8
+++ src/logging.h	21 Jul 2003 04:38:47 -0000
@@ -72,7 +72,7 @@
 ** time of connection.
 */
 
-#define LOGGING_FORMAT_CLF "%d/%b/%Y:%H:%M:%S %z"
+#define LOGGING_FORMAT_CLF "%d/%b/%Y:%H:%M:%S %Z"
 
 void logging_access(client_t *client);
 void restart_logging (void);





<p>/ek
http://elektronkind.org/
Psytrance: it's post-grad school for ravers.

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From stefan at neufeind.net  Mon Jul 21 06:34:38 2003
From: stefan at neufeind.net (Stefan Neufeind)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 08:34:38 +0200
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <200307211217.04161.msmith@xiph.org>
Message-ID: <3F1BA59E.9385.178B2E@localhost>



On 21 Jul 2003 at 12:17, Michael Smith wrote:

> > > vorbis is supported in WMP by external plugins - they're not built
> > > in, and not auto-downloaded. There is a real plugin, it will soon
> > > (but not yet, afaik) be available from the auto-download servers.
> > > iTunes doesn't support it.
> >
> > Ouch. Is the Vorbis codec "finalized" ? I saw some talk that they
> > keep improving it. If there is backwards compatibility then that is
> > fine. Maybe if we request iTunes add Vorbis support Apple would
> > implement it?
> 
> Yes, the vorbis format is definately finalised (has been for well over
> a year, now). We've published the spec ourselves, but we're also
> persuing publication as an RFC, etc. While the encoder will continue
> to be improved, existing decoders will work without modification.
> 
> The more people that ask Apple for support the better, I suppose - go
> ahead and ask them!

Out-of-the-box (e.g. auto-codec-download) would really be a good idea 
for sure. But did you notice there is already a component for 
QuickTime to support vorbis?

http://qtcomponents.sourceforge.net/

Just came across it when searching. There are Versions for Mac and 
Win. Tried it without success - but maybe the problem was me? *g* 
>From the page it looks very promising - and maybe that's a project in 
somebody might like to contribute, since it was last changed in 2002.

 Stefan
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From arc at indymedia.org  Mon Jul 21 06:44:53 2003
From: arc at indymedia.org (Arc)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 02:44:53 -0400
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <3F1BA59E.9385.178B2E@localhost>
Message-ID: <20030721064453.GY322@selket.nyfss.org>


On Mon, Jul 21, 2003 at 08:34:38AM +0200, Stefan Neufeind wrote:
> > The more people that ask Apple for support the better, I suppose - go
> > ahead and ask them!
> 
> Out-of-the-box (e.g. auto-codec-download) would really be a good idea 
> for sure. But did you notice there is already a component for 
> QuickTime to support vorbis?
> 
> http://qtcomponents.sourceforge.net/
> 
> Just came across it when searching. There are Versions for Mac and 
> Win. Tried it without success - but maybe the problem was me? *g* 

It works for static files, but not for streaming.  AFAIK, only Apple
could write a plugin that supports streaming, as it requires a so far
unpublished API to do so.

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From stefan at neufeind.net  Mon Jul 21 07:14:41 2003
From: stefan at neufeind.net (Stefan Neufeind)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:14:41 +0200
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <20030721064453.GY322@selket.nyfss.org>
Message-ID: <3F1BAF01.12712.3C38B3@localhost>



On 21 Jul 2003 at 2:44, Arc wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 21, 2003 at 08:34:38AM +0200, Stefan Neufeind wrote:
> > > The more people that ask Apple for support the better, I suppose -
> > > go ahead and ask them!
> > 
> > Out-of-the-box (e.g. auto-codec-download) would really be a good
> > idea for sure. But did you notice there is already a component for
> > QuickTime to support vorbis?
> > 
> > http://qtcomponents.sourceforge.net/
> > 
> > Just came across it when searching. There are Versions for Mac and
> > Win. Tried it without success - but maybe the problem was me? *g* 
> 
> It works for static files, but not for streaming.  AFAIK, only Apple
> could write a plugin that supports streaming, as it requires a so far
> unpublished API to do so.

Well, do we have any correct contact to penetrate with pepitions? I'd 
vote for it. But writing to the general contact listed on the apple-
website might not be a good idea since it won't reach the appropriate 
people, right?

 Stefan
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From andy at theyers.com  Mon Jul 21 08:48:42 2003
From: andy at theyers.com (Andy)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:48:42 +0100
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <200307211214.55262.msmith@xiph.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20030721094530.02efbc00@stilton.pencil.net>



At 12:14 21/07/2003 +1000, Michael Smith wrote:
>Using the admin interface (web-based) - it has a way to explicitly move all
>clients from one mountpoint to another.

Please excuse the daft question, but how do I access the admin 
interface?  I have a basic installation with the XSL files available in the 
defined web root, but can't find any admin interface to connect to?  Can 
anyone point me there to get started?

Cheers

Andy

-- 
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  -- Calvin

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From minus273point16c at fastmail.fm  Mon Jul 21 14:03:49 2003
From: minus273point16c at fastmail.fm (Luke Stodola)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:03:49 -0500
Subject: [icecast] IceCast Questions.... (&quot;id3 tags, mp3, Ogg, etc)
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20030721094530.02efbc00@stilton.pencil.net>
Message-ID: <20030721140349.B89AE39AA4@www.fastmail.fm>



On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:48:42 +0100, "Andy" <andy at theyers.com> said:
> At 12:14 21/07/2003 +1000, Michael Smith wrote:
> >Using the admin interface (web-based) - it has a way to explicitly move all
> >clients from one mountpoint to another.
> 
> Please excuse the daft question, but how do I access the admin 
> interface?  I have a basic installation with the XSL files available in
> the 
> defined web root, but can't find any admin interface to connect to?  Can 
> anyone point me there to get started?

In addition to the <webroot>, there is also <adminroot>.  I set mine to
/web/admin.   Copy the included "admin" directory there if it isn't
already.  Then you should go to yourserver:8000/admin/ and log in with
username and password set in <admin-user> and        <admin-password>
form the <authentication> block.

-- 
  Luke Stodola
  minus273point16c at fastmail.fm

-- 
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From minus273point16c at fastmail.fm  Mon Jul 21 14:08:28 2003
From: minus273point16c at fastmail.fm (Luke Stodola)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:08:28 -0500
Subject: [icecast] icecast problem
In-Reply-To: <3F16AF88.2578.2F57E3@localhost>
Message-ID: <20030721140828.7CC6B39AC6@www.fastmail.fm>



> How about activating SSL-support for streaming? Would it be possible 
> to e.g. offer sending data (passwords, stats etc.) to the server via 
> SSL but still over access to the streams via http? Or how about 
> making a "closed user group" which log into a stream via https and 
> need to authenticate (is it possible via http basic auth?) to be able 
> to listen to the stream? Just imagining maybe a conference or such 
> that might be broadcasted this way to a closed usergroup.
> Does anybody rate this useful? Comments please, just a thought.

I'd love to see the web-based admin/ encrypted (optionally, I suppose,
but encouraged).  The source (IceS, oddcast, etc.) to icecast2 connection
would also be nice encrypted.  Just comments....  I haven't had a break
in, yet.

-- 
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  minus273point16c at fastmail.fm

-- 
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From minus273point16c at fastmail.fm  Mon Jul 21 14:14:58 2003
From: minus273point16c at fastmail.fm (Luke Stodola)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 09:14:58 -0500
Subject: [icecast] Debian packages: icecast2, libshout, ices2
In-Reply-To: <20030717031848.GA21426@thebasement.org>
Message-ID: <20030721141458.CA43339009@www.fastmail.fm>



To echo the other poster, thanks a lot!  We, too, use Debian woody as our
server environment.  So far, I've been using the install from CVS to
/usr/local/ method, which works fine for now.  I will certainly switch to
the Debian packages eventually though.  How long do you expect it will
take for them to be in the main archives? 

Your packages are well appreciated.

-- 
  Luke Stodola
  minus273point16c at fastmail.fm

-- 
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From minus273point16c at fastmail.fm  Mon Jul 21 15:34:42 2003
From: minus273point16c at fastmail.fm (Luke Stodola)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 10:34:42 -0500
Subject: [icecast] PDA as source client
Message-ID: <20030721153442.62BCF39A26@www.fastmail.fm>



Has anybody used anything other than a PC as a source for icecast2?  Are
PDAs powerfull enough?  I know vorbis encoding takes a signifigant amount
of CPU power, but I've been able to do it on 4 year old PCs.  Does a
206MHz Intel StrongARM 32-bit RISC processor have as much power as a 200
Mhz Pentium?

I'm thinking Compaq iPaq, running Familiar Linux and IceS, would make a
nice portable $220 source.  

Any thoughts?

-- 
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  minus273point16c at fastmail.fm

-- 
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From adam at xs4all.nl  Mon Jul 21 15:40:23 2003
From: adam at xs4all.nl (adam)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 17:40:23 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [icecast] PDA as source client
In-Reply-To: <20030721153442.62BCF39A26@www.fastmail.fm>
Message-ID: <20030721174003.L1242-100000@xs1.xs4all.nl>



apparently darkice will compile for zaurus but havent tried it

adam

<p><p>On Mon, 21
Jul 2003, Luke Stodola wrote:

> Has anybody used anything other than a PC as a source for icecast2?  Are
> PDAs powerfull enough?  I know vorbis encoding takes a signifigant amount
> of CPU power, but I've been able to do it on 4 year old PCs.  Does a
> 206MHz Intel StrongARM 32-bit RISC processor have as much power as a 200
> Mhz Pentium?
>
> I'm thinking Compaq iPaq, running Familiar Linux and IceS, would make a
> nice portable $220 source.
>
> Any thoughts?
> --
>   Luke Stodola
>   minus273point16c at fastmail.fm
>
> --
> http://www.fastmail.fm - A fast, anti-spam email service.
> --- >8 ----
> List archives:  http://www.xiph.org/archives/
> icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/
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>

<p><p><p>Adam Hyde
The Streaming Suitcase

Free as in 'media'

+44 (0)7919 847 023

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From stefan at neufeind.net  Mon Jul 21 15:39:49 2003
From: stefan at neufeind.net (Stefan Neufeind)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 17:39:49 +0200
Subject: [icecast] PDA as source client
In-Reply-To: <20030721153442.62BCF39A26@www.fastmail.fm>
Message-ID: <3F1C2565.8074.20AACC8@localhost>



On 21 Jul 2003 at 10:34, Luke Stodola wrote:

> Has anybody used anything other than a PC as a source for icecast2? 
> Are PDAs powerfull enough?  I know vorbis encoding takes a signifigant
> amount of CPU power, but I've been able to do it on 4 year old PCs. 
> Does a 206MHz Intel StrongARM 32-bit RISC processor have as much power
> as a 200 Mhz Pentium?
> 
> I'm thinking Compaq iPaq, running Familiar Linux and IceS, would make
> a nice portable $220 source.  
> 
> Any thoughts?

Well, I thought about it as well but up to now didn't try. Via which 
way do you intend to have e.g. a line-in to the iPaq with reasonable 
quality. Would be really interesting to figure out such things ... 
and then use a WLAN-cradle to transport data to the internet *g*

  Stefan
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From minus273point16c at fastmail.fm  Mon Jul 21 16:38:08 2003
From: minus273point16c at fastmail.fm (Luke Stodola)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 11:38:08 -0500
Subject: [icecast] PDA as source client
In-Reply-To: <3F1C2565.8074.20AACC8@localhost>
Message-ID: <20030721163808.789FE399D8@www.fastmail.fm>



> Well, I thought about it as well but up to now didn't try. Via which 
> way do you intend to have e.g. a line-in to the iPaq with reasonable 
> quality. Would be really interesting to figure out such things ... 
> and then use a WLAN-cradle to transport data to the internet *g*
The main use would be covering events at sports fields, auditoriums, etc.
that are away from the studio.  Since these would already have a PA mixer
at them, generally I'd just use an Aux out (line level) from the mixer to
line in on the PDA.  But a single XLR mic with a converter to 1/8" phono
should work too, right?  What's the audio quality built in to a PDA like,
anybody?  I've never used one.

I do know that PCMCIA cards for Professional audio exist, which could be
an option if the built-in isn't good enough.

<p><p>> 
>   Stefan
> --- >8 ----
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> 

-- 
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From stefan at neufeind.net  Mon Jul 21 17:23:01 2003
From: stefan at neufeind.net (Stefan Neufeind)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 19:23:01 +0200
Subject: [icecast] PDA as source client
In-Reply-To: <20030721163808.789FE399D8@www.fastmail.fm>
Message-ID: <3F1C3D95.9035.269287E@localhost>



On 21 Jul 2003 at 11:38, Luke Stodola wrote:

> > Well, I thought about it as well but up to now didn't try. Via which
> > way do you intend to have e.g. a line-in to the iPaq with reasonable
> > quality. Would be really interesting to figure out such things ...
> > and then use a WLAN-cradle to transport data to the internet *g*
> The main use would be covering events at sports fields, auditoriums,
> etc. that are away from the studio.  Since these would already have a
> PA mixer at them, generally I'd just use an Aux out (line level) from
> the mixer to line in on the PDA.  But a single XLR mic with a
> converter to 1/8" phono should work too, right?  What's the audio
> quality built in to a PDA like, anybody?  I've never used one.

One friend of mine has got an iPaq 3870. But it doesn't provide an 
line-in. Just has line-out and a built-in mic.

Anyway: Would be really interested if you manage to get it running
a) because of hardware (line-in)
and
b) because of speed (cpu-power/software).

Please keep us posted.

> I do know that PCMCIA cards for Professional audio exist, which could
> be an option if the built-in isn't good enough.

Well okay. But using a dual-pcmcia-jacket to have a soundcard and a 
wlan-interface and ... oh boy ... then you could as well use a small 
shuttle-board in a neat and small pc-case, right?

  Stefan
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From laleona at gmx.net  Mon Jul 21 06:38:01 2003
From: laleona at gmx.net (laleona at gmx.net)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 08:38:01 +0200
Subject: [icecast] streaming from remote fm's
Message-ID: <a05200f05bb4134c1460f@[192.168.30.118]>



hi,

we would like to set up a streaming server (icecast on debian) as a 
collaborative plattform for open radio initiatives. the idea is to 
have an "open" streaming server, offering a shared live-stream to 
community/clandesite/alternative radio stations on which they can 
broadcast their radio programms without having to buy a server and 
installing icecast.

the way we (naivly) see it at the moment (and we are all not 
technology cracks) is this: we would have a website where a 
participating radio station/ programm producer could reserve say 2 
hours of the livestream on a certain date and then on that date send 
his radio programm from a remote computer to our icecast server which 
would then send the stream. after 2 hours the stream would change to 
another remote user.

- can i do this using icecast? even if the radio stations involved 
will not have a server of their own and sometimes only 56 kb modem?

- does remote producer send his audio using tcp/ip? does it already 
need to be in a specific format?

- is there any way of having connection/ new users / permissions 
updated automatically (we would like the server to work as a 
self-service, self-operated collaborating stream)? how are 
permissions handled?

any help/ideas would be VERY welcome... thank you very much

laleona

<p>ps: what we want to do is simmilar to the project publicvoice.fm 
(http://puublicvoice.fm).

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From adam at xs4all.nl  Mon Jul 21 18:43:25 2003
From: adam at xs4all.nl (adam)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 20:43:25 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [icecast] streaming from remote fm's
In-Reply-To: <a05200f05bb4134c1460f@[192.168.30.118]>
Message-ID: <20030721204256.I1242-100000@xs1.xs4all.nl>



why not join the existing infrastructure for this - the open source
streaming alliance:

www.streamingalliance.org

<p>adam

<p><p><p>On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, laleona at gmx.net wrote:

> hi,
>
> we would like to set up a streaming server (icecast on debian) as a
> collaborative plattform for open radio initiatives. the idea is to
> have an "open" streaming server, offering a shared live-stream to
> community/clandesite/alternative radio stations on which they can
> broadcast their radio programms without having to buy a server and
> installing icecast.
>
> the way we (naivly) see it at the moment (and we are all not
> technology cracks) is this: we would have a website where a
> participating radio station/ programm producer could reserve say 2
> hours of the livestream on a certain date and then on that date send
> his radio programm from a remote computer to our icecast server which
> would then send the stream. after 2 hours the stream would change to
> another remote user.
>
> - can i do this using icecast? even if the radio stations involved
> will not have a server of their own and sometimes only 56 kb modem?
>
> - does remote producer send his audio using tcp/ip? does it already
> need to be in a specific format?
>
> - is there any way of having connection/ new users / permissions
> updated automatically (we would like the server to work as a
> self-service, self-operated collaborating stream)? how are
> permissions handled?
>
> any help/ideas would be VERY welcome... thank you very much
>
> laleona
>
>
> ps: what we want to do is simmilar to the project publicvoice.fm
> (http://puublicvoice.fm).
>
> --- >8 ----
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> icecast project homepage: http://www.icecast.org/
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<p><p><p>Adam Hyde
The Streaming Suitcase

Free as in 'media'

+44 (0)7919 847 023

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From groups at mediacast1.com  Mon Jul 21 18:55:40 2003
From: groups at mediacast1.com (Dave St John)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:55:40 -0600
Subject: [icecast] Hosting Scam
In-Reply-To: <a05200f05bb4134c1460f@[192.168.30.118]>
Message-ID: <00aa01c34fb9$aedda050$6601a8c0@EAGLENEST>



Hello Everyone and all who webcast.
just putting out some info on another isp who likes to scam.

 We ordered services through this company (Mediatrend.co.uk) and have
yet to recieve a dedicated server. It has been 2 months since the
order was placed, after sending emails back and forth i came to
the conclusion this guys is out to scam other isps as well as normal
everyday companies/stations needing hosting. Email dialogs are available
upon request.

admin at mediacast1.com

Dave St John
Mediacast1 Administration
(720) 641-7586

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From msmith at xiph.org  Tue Jul 22 01:15:09 2003
From: msmith at xiph.org (Michael Smith)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:15:09 +1000
Subject: [icecast] PDA as source client
In-Reply-To: <20030721153442.62BCF39A26@www.fastmail.fm>
Message-ID: <200307221115.09827.msmith@xiph.org>



On Tuesday 22 July 2003 01:34, Luke Stodola wrote:
> Has anybody used anything other than a PC as a source for icecast2?  Are
> PDAs powerfull enough?  I know vorbis encoding takes a signifigant amount
> of CPU power, but I've been able to do it on 4 year old PCs.  Does a
> 206MHz Intel StrongARM 32-bit RISC processor have as much power as a 200
> Mhz Pentium?
>
> I'm thinking Compaq iPaq, running Familiar Linux and IceS, would make a
> nice portable $220 source.
>
> Any thoughts?

No. These PDAs (and similar ones) do not have floating point hardware. Without 
that (i.e. using software-emulated floating point), this cpu is far too slow. 
No fixed-point vorbis _encoder_ exists, currently. So there's no chance at 
all with vorbis, unless you want to write such an encoder (this is a Very 
Large Task).

For mp3, it might be possible. I think fixed-point mp3 encoders exist, though 
they're not (afaik) competitive on quality with things like LAME, and there 
may not be any free (non-commercial) ones (you'd have to pay the mp3 
licensing fees anyway). You'd have to investigate.

Mike

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From max_teneur at yahoo.fr  Tue Jul 22 09:28:15 2003
From: max_teneur at yahoo.fr (Teneur MAxime)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 11:28:15 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [icecast] Relay & authentification
Message-ID: <20030722092815.10952.qmail@web80605.mail.yahoo.com>



i've got some troubles with the configuration of a
relay for Icecast 2.0...

In fact,in master server log files, i can see that the
slave server try to relay master server...but it can't
because of the "content-type" of the stream it tries
to relay.

looking at the slave log file, authentification is not
realized:
"misssing or bad password"

however in conf files my tag "<relay password>" are
all the same....

thanks for an eventual reply

___________________________________________________________
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From msmith at xiph.org  Wed Jul 23 00:42:23 2003
From: msmith at xiph.org (Michael Smith)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:42:23 +1000
Subject: [icecast] Relay & authentification
In-Reply-To: <20030722092815.10952.qmail@web80605.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200307231042.23684.msmith@xiph.org>



On Tuesday 22 July 2003 19:28, Teneur MAxime wrote:
> i've got some troubles with the configuration of a
> relay for Icecast 2.0...
>

I suspect the global-relaying stuff might be slightly broken at the moment. 
Setting up individual stream relays (which doesn't use the relay password) 
should work. (hmm.. sudden idea: the global relays might work if you use the 
admin password?)

Mike

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From ice at wasteland.respond2.com  Wed Jul 23 03:09:51 2003
From: ice at wasteland.respond2.com (Keegan Quinn)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2003 20:09:51 -0700
Subject: [icecast] Debian packages: icecast2, libshout, ices2
In-Reply-To: <20030721141458.CA43339009@www.fastmail.fm>
Message-ID: <20030723030951.GA22880@wasteland.respond2.com>


On Mon, Jul 21, 2003 at 09:14:58AM -0500, Luke Stodola wrote:
> To echo the other poster, thanks a lot!

You're quite welcome, and so is Matt.

> So far, I've been using the install from CVS to
> /usr/local/ method, which works fine for now.  I will certainly switch to
> the Debian packages eventually though.  How long do you expect it will
> take for them to be in the main archives? 

libshout has been accepted, and should appear in unstable any day now.
icecast2 and ices2 are in final stages of review and should be uploaded
shortly.  As you probably know, this doesn't mean they will be available
immediately in stable; they will be included with the next release.

> Your packages are well appreciated.

I'm glad.  :)

 - Keegan

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From brendan at xiph.org  Thu Jul 24 03:25:23 2003
From: brendan at xiph.org (Brendan Cully)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 23:25:23 -0400
Subject: [icecast] Patch to add User-Agent to libshout
In-Reply-To: <1FA1018E-BB33-11D7-B17B-000393A47680@elemental.org>
Message-ID: <20030724032522.GA577@watanabe.kublai.com>



Hmm, thanks. But

1. Libshout already sends the user-agent header. Look down a few
lines.
2. There's even a public API for setting the value of that header
(shout_set_agent).

On Monday, 21 July 2003 at 00:23, Dale Ghent wrote:
> 
> Just a nifty thing to have for icecast server access logs... diff 
> against CVS HEAD is attached.
> 

> Index: configure.in
> ===================================================================
> RCS file: /usr/local/cvsroot/libshout/configure.in,v
> retrieving revision 1.65
> diff -u -r1.65 configure.in
> +++ configure.in	21 Jul 2003 04:20:22 -0000
> @@ -65,7 +65,7 @@
>  		;;
>          esac
>  else
> -        XIPH_CFLAGS="-Wall -ffast-math -fsigned-char"
> +        XIPH_CFLAGS="-Wall -ffast-math -fsigned-char -DVERSION=${SHOUT_VERSION}"
>          AC_DEFINE(_GNU_SOURCE, ,[Define if you have POSIX and GNU specifications])
>          DEBUG="-g"
>          PROFILE="-pg -g"
> Index: src/shout.c
> ===================================================================
> RCS file: /usr/local/cvsroot/libshout/src/shout.c,v
> retrieving revision 1.48
> diff -u -r1.48 shout.c
> +++ src/shout.c	21 Jul 2003 04:20:22 -0000
> @@ -756,7 +756,7 @@
>  	char *auth;
>  	char *ai;
>  
> -	if (!sock_write(self->socket, "SOURCE %s HTTP/1.0\r\n", self->mount))
> +	if (!sock_write(self->socket, "SOURCE %s HTTP/1.0\r\nUser-Agent: libshout/%s\r\n", self->mount, VERSION))
>  		return SHOUTERR_SOCKET;
>  
>  	if (self->password && (auth = http_basic_authorization(self))) {

> 
> 
> 
> /ek
> http://elektronkind.org/
> Psytrance: it's post-grad school for ravers.

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From nettings at folkwang-hochschule.de  Thu Jul 24 19:52:23 2003
From: nettings at folkwang-hochschule.de (Joern Nettingsmeier)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 21:52:23 +0200
Subject: [icecast] PDA as source client
In-Reply-To: <20030721153442.62BCF39A26@www.fastmail.fm>
Message-ID: <3F2038F7.8070304@folkwang-hochschule.de>



Luke Stodola wrote:
> Has anybody used anything other than a PC as a source for icecast2?  Are
> PDAs powerfull enough?  I know vorbis encoding takes a signifigant amount
> of CPU power, but I've been able to do it on 4 year old PCs.  Does a
> 206MHz Intel StrongARM 32-bit RISC processor have as much power as a 200
> Mhz Pentium?

the big problem here is that the arm does not have floating point 
operations in hardware. all float calculations must be emulated in 
software. i don't know how much float math is involved in encoding 
vorbis, but my guess is "quite some" :)

> I'm thinking Compaq iPaq, running Familiar Linux and IceS, would make a
> nice portable $220 source.  
> 
> Any thoughts?

<p>
-- 
All Members shall refrain in their international relations from
the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or
political independence of any state, or in any other manner
inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.
	-- Charter of the United Nations, Article 2.4

<p>J?rn Nettingsmeier
Kurf?rstenstr 49, 45138 Essen, Germany
http://spunk.dnsalias.org (my server)
http://www.linuxdj.com/audio/lad/ (Linux Audio Developers)

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From adam at xs4all.nl  Fri Jul 25 12:54:50 2003
From: adam at xs4all.nl (adam)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:54:50 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [icecast] PDA as source client
In-Reply-To: <3F2038F7.8070304@folkwang-hochschule.de>
Message-ID: <20030725144651.C9165-100000@xs1.xs4all.nl>



Akos, the darkice developer, said a while ago that Darkice should be
able to be compiled and run on the Sharp Zaurus. I have just tried this
but no luck, it just returns 'cannot execute binary'...

i have ogglibs and vorbis libs installed on the zaurus so if anyone
knows
anyway to stream using ogg on a strongarm pda, i would be most grateful to
know more

i will also try cross compiling for the zaurus Qtopia environment but i
first need to know more about how to make '.pro' files...if there is
anyone that can point me at a resource for this too, that would be great
:)

in the meantime i have had zaurus using 'zmeeting' which does instant
messanger type 'realtime' voice messenging and the quality seems quite ok,
and it interacts with gnomemeeting really well...looking forward to the
possibility of streaming ogg though....

adam

<p><p><p><p><p><p><p>On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Joern Nettingsmeier wrote:

> Luke Stodola wrote:
> > Has anybody used anything other than a PC as a source for icecast2?  Are
> > PDAs powerfull enough?  I know vorbis encoding takes a signifigant amount
> > of CPU power, but I've been able to do it on 4 year old PCs.  Does a
> > 206MHz Intel StrongARM 32-bit RISC processor have as much power as a 200
> > Mhz Pentium?
>
> the big problem here is that the arm does not have floating point
> operations in hardware. all float calculations must be emulated in
> software. i don't know how much float math is involved in encoding
> vorbis, but my guess is "quite some" :)
>
> > I'm thinking Compaq iPaq, running Familiar Linux and IceS, would make a
> > nice portable $220 source.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
>
>
> --
> All Members shall refrain in their international relations from
> the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or
> political independence of any state, or in any other manner
> inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.
> 	-- Charter of the United Nations, Article 2.4
>
>
> J?rn Nettingsmeier
> Kurf?rstenstr 49, 45138 Essen, Germany
> http://spunk.dnsalias.org (my server)
> http://www.linuxdj.com/audio/lad/ (Linux Audio Developers)
>
>
>
>
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>
>

<p><p><p>Adam Hyde
The Streaming Suitcase

Free as in 'media'

+44 (0)7919 847 023

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From jthomas at netpass.com  Fri Jul 25 18:05:33 2003
From: jthomas at netpass.com (James Thomas)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 14:05:33 -0400
Subject: [icecast] [ices] 0.3 Not finding file?
Message-ID: <003001c352d7$57c4fe00$f3e2ded0@netpass.com>



Hi,  I'm new to the list, so first off I want to thank everyone who puts their hard work in to the webcast community...

I have icecast 2 running, and I'm trying to start Ices 0.3.  I have a perl module programmed to pick the next song, etc.  It returns the full path of the song on a single line.  When I start Ices, the message I get is "<path to file> could not be found. No such file or directory exists." (Replace <path to file> with my actual path and filename).

Originally thought to be a permissions problem, my admin ran it as root, and we still get the problem.  Does anyone have an input on this?

Thanks

<p>James
jthomas at netpass.com

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From ross.levis at cchlawbase.co.nz  Mon Jul 28 00:43:00 2003
From: ross.levis at cchlawbase.co.nz (Ross Levis)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 12:43:00 +1200
Subject: [icecast] OddCast or IceCast screws up extended characters
Message-ID: <84C0CDE57EDD0841880993D82051278E142979@bagheera.internal.cch.co.nz>



I'll purposely attach an HTML encoded message in case some of you are using 7-bit ascii readers.

I have a number of songs which use extended ASCII characters in the arist or title such as M?ire Brennan - I L?thair D?.  The Current Song in the IceCast status.xsl replaces every extended character plus 1 or 2 characters after it with some strange character.  So effectivly shortens the title somewhat but it's mostly still there.  When listening to the stream with Winamp 2.9x, the title shows as "M - I L".  I'm not kidding.

Regards,
Ross. 

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From msmith at xiph.org  Mon Jul 28 01:54:10 2003
From: msmith at xiph.org (Michael Smith)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2003 11:54:10 +1000
Subject: [icecast] OddCast or IceCast screws up extended characters
In-Reply-To: <84C0CDE57EDD0841880993D82051278E142979@bagheera.internal.cch.co.nz>
Message-ID: <200307281154.10065.msmith@xiph.org>



On Monday 28 July 2003 10:43, Ross Levis wrote:
> I'll purposely attach an HTML encoded message in case some of you are using
> 7-bit ascii readers.
>
> I have a number of songs which use extended ASCII characters in the arist
> or title such as M?ire Brennan - I L?thair D?.  The Current Song in the
> IceCast status.xsl replaces every extended character plus 1 or 2 characters
> after it with some strange character.  So effectivly shortens the title

Probably a (minor) icecast bug. We should be sending "Content-Type: text/html; 
charset=UTF-8", and ensuring that we're actually sending UTF-8 (it looks like 
we are sending UTF-8 here, but not setting the content charset correctly).

> somewhat but it's mostly still there.  When listening to the stream with
> Winamp 2.9x, the title shows as "M - I L".  I'm not kidding.

This could be a winamp bug, or it could an oddcast bug, or (most likely), it 
could be an icecast bug. It's difficult to tell: this bit of winamp's 
metadata protocol is entirely undocumented. What character set is this stuff 
meant to be in?

Mike

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From max_teneur at yahoo.fr  Tue Jul 29 15:03:39 2003
From: max_teneur at yahoo.fr (Teneur MAxime)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:03:39 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [icecast] network-topology
Message-ID: <20030729150339.93886.qmail@web80601.mail.yahoo.com>



Hy,

I've some questions about the topology of networks
between icecast server and relays...

At first i asked myself if is it possible, when a
client attempts to connect to the master server, that
this server redirects client to another icecast server
(relay) and that the client is automatically
connecting to the relay....

I've also seen that this function has two responses:
-first is that this process depends on the telecoms
-second is that this process can be implemented by the
application...

So, i would like to know how is it for icecast? and
where can i find some documentation about it???

thanks for all

___________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en fran?ais !
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From stefan at neufeind.net  Tue Jul 29 15:41:52 2003
From: stefan at neufeind.net (Stefan Neufeind)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 17:41:52 +0200
Subject: [icecast] network-topology
In-Reply-To: <20030729150339.93886.qmail@web80601.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3F26B1E0.29638.1EB9DD1@localhost>



On 29 Jul 2003 at 17:03, Teneur MAxime wrote:

> I've some questions about the topology of networks
> between icecast server and relays...
> 
> At first i asked myself if is it possible, when a
> client attempts to connect to the master server, that
> this server redirects client to another icecast server
> (relay) and that the client is automatically
> connecting to the relay....
> 
> I've also seen that this function has two responses:
> -first is that this process depends on the telecoms
> -second is that this process can be implemented by the
> application...
> 
> So, i would like to know how is it for icecast? and
> where can i find some documentation about it???

Well I guess thats not straight-away possible with icecast2. But 
maybe you could try out opening a small php-page as your actual 
"streaming-url" and then send a header("Location: new-url") and 
direct e.g. WinAmp to the streaming-server you want it to stream 
from? But I'm not sure if this works with all players. Anybody tried 
it already?

  Stefan
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From stream at mmrmedia.xs4all.nl  Tue Jul 29 22:50:37 2003
From: stream at mmrmedia.xs4all.nl (stream at mmrmedia.xs4all.nl)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 00:50:37 +0200
Subject: [icecast] icecast2 touch-up
Message-ID: <20030730005037.A31633@mmrmedia.xs4all.nl>



Hi list

I try to get the latest icecast from cvs to touch
up to the yp servers.
It does not, i think i have to set it public.
public = 0 in the admin interface
but i don't know how what is the command and in
which file to place it ices-conf or icecast-conf

Thanks in advance
Maarten
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From gshang at uq.net.au  Wed Jul 30 00:22:08 2003
From: gshang at uq.net.au (Geoff Shang)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 10:22:08 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [icecast] network-topology
In-Reply-To: <20030729150339.93886.qmail@web80601.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.56.0307301018410.6605@data.home>



Hi:

This would be a bit tricky to implement on the server itself, since if it
directed everything to the relay URL, the relaying server wouldn't be able
to connect.  You'd have to do something with useragent headers.  Sounds
messy.  It would seem to me that it would be easiest to keep people away
from the master server by not sending them there to begin with.  I don't
know of your exact setup, but you'd either post links to the relay server,
or to a script which  will determine which of a set of relays to send the
person to and rediredt as appropriate.

Geoff.

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From dmz at dmzs.com  Wed Jul 30 07:38:23 2003
From: dmz at dmzs.com (dmz)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 00:38:23 -0700
Subject: [icecast] status2.xsl info...
Message-ID: <E19hlXT-00012m-00@rtwap.dmzs.com>



Quick thought, if the fields are separated by "," & a title/artist/.. has
a comma in it then it causes a few problems with parsing. 

Likewise if there are multiple streams it might be nice to have each stream in it's own line so it is easier to grab the info.

Also, status.xsl displays streams even after they have been stopped.

dmz
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From msmith at xiph.org  Wed Jul 30 07:52:08 2003
From: msmith at xiph.org (Michael Smith)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 17:52:08 +1000
Subject: [icecast] status2.xsl info...
In-Reply-To: <E19hlXT-00012m-00@rtwap.dmzs.com>
Message-ID: <200307301752.08738.msmith@xiph.org>



On Wednesday 30 July 2003 17:38, dmz wrote:
> Quick thought, if the fields are separated by "," & a title/artist/.. has
> a comma in it then it causes a few problems with parsing.

If you need to parse it, use the raw xml form. It's more parseable. I don't 
know what the point of status2.xsl is.

>
> Likewise if there are multiple streams it might be nice to have each stream
> in it's own line so it is easier to grab the info.

See above.

>
> Also, status.xsl displays streams even after they have been stopped.

It's meant to. 

Mike

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From stefan at neufeind.net  Wed Jul 30 09:33:15 2003
From: stefan at neufeind.net (Stefan Neufeind)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:33:15 +0200
Subject: [icecast] network-topology
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.56.0307301018410.6605@data.home>
Message-ID: <3F27ACFB.27302.CED023@localhost>



On 30 Jul 2003 at 10:22, Geoff Shang wrote:

> This would be a bit tricky to implement on the server itself, since if
> it directed everything to the relay URL, the relaying server wouldn't
> be able to connect.  You'd have to do something with useragent
> headers.  Sounds messy.  It would seem to me that it would be easiest
> to keep people away from the master server by not sending them there
> to begin with.  I don't know of your exact setup, but you'd either
> post links to the relay server, or to a script which  will determine
> which of a set of relays to send the person to and rediredt as
> appropriate.

Well, now that I thought about it further :-) Why not just create a 
m3u/pls dynamically on the fly to redirect listener to the correct 
server?

   Stefan
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From oddsock at oddsock.org  Wed Jul 30 13:13:48 2003
From: oddsock at oddsock.org (oddsock)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 08:13:48 -0500
Subject: [icecast] status2.xsl info...
In-Reply-To: <200307301752.08738.msmith@xiph.org>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20030730080457.02dd1b00@www.oddsock.org>



At 05:52 PM 7/30/2003 +1000, you wrote:
>On Wednesday 30 July 2003 17:38, dmz wrote:
> > Quick thought, if the fields are separated by "," & a title/artist/.. has
> > a comma in it then it causes a few problems with parsing.
>
>If you need to parse it, use the raw xml form. It's more parseable. I don't
>know what the point of status2.xsl is.

the point was primarily to show yet another example (albiet a poor one) of 
providing the same information in a different way.  If you had a very 
simple client (that for instance didn't have XML parsing capability) that 
wanted basic stats, then you could use this transform presuming that you 
chose a good separator (comma is not really a good one in practice, but 
serves as a good enough example)  This transform can be likened to the 
Shoutcast "7.html" request which was intended to be called by things like 
handhelds and PDAs (the name derives from the Palm VII)...anyway, that's 
what the point is.. :)

> >
> > Likewise if there are multiple streams it might be nice to have each stream
> > in it's own line so it is easier to grab the info.
>
>See above.

like I said, it's an example.  Feel free to extend and make it better.

> >
> > Also, status.xsl displays streams even after they have been stopped.
>
>It's meant to.

as Mike says, status.xsl does this by default, but a little XSLT coding can 
easily display only those streams that are connected.  The key is knowing 
that streams no longer connected have no listener count (this is different 
than having a listener count of 0), while connected streams always have a 
listener statistic.

oddsock

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From carl at personnelware.com  Wed Jul 30 16:34:58 2003
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:34:58 -0500
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 seg fault
Message-ID: <213201c356b8$864f48e0$0a01a8c0@cnt496>



ices plays for hours, then core dumps.  I replayed the last song it was playing, and it played fine.

What should I post?

Carl K
 http://www.personnelware.com/carl/resume.html
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From gtgbr at gmx.net  Wed Jul 30 17:45:32 2003
From: gtgbr at gmx.net (gtgbr at gmx.net)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 19:45:32 +0200
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 seg fault
In-Reply-To: <213201c356b8$864f48e0$0a01a8c0@cnt496>
Message-ID: <3F28043C.6EFF01F9@gmx.net>



Carl Karsten wrote:
> ices plays for hours, then core dumps.  I replayed the last song it was playing, and it played fine.

Use the coredump for a backtrace:

$ gdb /path/to/ices /path/to/coredump

and once you got to a gdb prompt, type "bt", without quotes. The
resulting mumbo jumbo might be useful for the developers.

<p>Moritz
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From carl at personnelware.com  Wed Jul 30 18:51:37 2003
From: carl at personnelware.com (Carl Karsten)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 13:51:37 -0500
Subject: [icecast] ices 0.3 seg fault
In-Reply-To: <3F28043C.6EFF01F9@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <21b101c356cb$9b9f8b20$0a01a8c0@cnt496>



> > ices plays for hours, then core dumps.  I replayed the last song it was playing, and it played fine.
> 
> Use the coredump for a backtrace:
> 
> $ gdb /path/to/ices /path/to/coredump
> 
#0  0x402b708d in III_dequantize_sample () from /usr/local/lib/libmp3lame.so.0
#1  0x402d0bc0 in ispow () from /usr/local/lib/libmp3lame.so.0
Cannot access memory at address 0x1

Neat - never done anything with a coredump before.

Carl K
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