[Flac-dev] Idea to possibly improve flac?
brianw at sounds.wa.com
Fri Jan 7 17:11:26 PST 2011
Lots of comments throughout this one...
On Jan 7, 2011, at 15:28, Declan Kelly wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 07, 2011 at 02:22:51PM -0800, brianw at sounds.wa.com wrote:
>> However, you should be aware that many modern producers use software
>> to create their music, and when the software stores sound clips in
>> MP3 format, what you end up with is music that sometimes looks like
> I recently bought the double-CD "Influence" remaster by The Art Of
> and some rarer tracks were sourced from MP3 because that was all their
> archivist could find. Most of the reissue was direct from analogue
> so this wasn't a quick "shovelware" reissue job.
Very interesting. I've purchased many CD titles with reissued
material where they clearly did not have access to anything but vinyl
for some tracks. It was weird to hear the needle drop, with rumble
throughout, especially since I has the original CD versions of the
same tracks in my collection. Also, the early days of Warp Records
involved many artists who sent in demoes on analog tape, and there is
obvious wow and flutter on these tracks, especially at the beginning
before the tape was properly tensioned.
A while back, when HD audio was quite rare, I purchased some titles
that were clearly low quality. Some 24/88.2 and 24/96 material had
nothing but noise above 20 kHz, but the audio content was clearly
from CD sources. I suppose the thought was that there was less noise
in the audible range below 20 kHz. Certain "HD" titles were
atrocious, with obvious indications that the source was 44.1 kHz and
the upper frequencies were clearly nothing more than aliased
frequencies! What's worse is that the aliased titles were samples on
an HD audio site. They clearly didn't get my money.
>> it just has to do with the software that was used to create the music
> A friend of mine recorded his band's last album on DCC in the mid
> and released it on CD. It sounds horrible; the lossy compression of
> is even worse than MiniDisc's ATRAC. I'm sure this CD would fail most
> FFT quality tests, as literally everyone who heard it (not just people
> with "golden ears" or good sound systems) complained about the
I have also worked with mastering of a compilation CD including some
material recorded and mixed on DCC. What's interesting in this one
case is that the "music" was in the "noise" genre, and the DCC was
used as an effect. It could not handle the content and therefore
ending up changing it. What I found most interesting was that I had
hired a professional studio in Seattle, and the owner actually stuck
his head in the room for this one track. He'd heard a lot of
interesting music in the local scene, but nothing that messed up.
>> Nine Inch Nails who provide FLAC files.
> The initial free online release of NIN's The Slip had a problem
> with the
> 24-bit version: it wasn't the full 24/96. Turns out it was a genuine
> oversight by the mastering lab (who used the 24/96 to master the
> and the true 24/96 files were reissued less than a week later.
> So even with the artist fully behind 24-bit FLAC, and doing almost all
> of the work in their own studio, things can still go wrong.
Thanks! That's interesting to note. I think that I ended up with
the true 24/96 files, but I am curious: How do you tell whether you
have the full 24/96 or not? I have written software which can detect
16-bit audio samples stored in a 24-bit file format. Frequency
analysis makes it obvious whether the content extends above 20 kHz.
But I just want to make sure that there isn't another technique that
>> Some audio turns out smaller with ALAC, other audio turns out
>> smaller with FLAC. Overall, the average performance is identical.
> I've been trying Flake (an alternative FLAC encoder; all it does is
> encode) recently and while it goes way faster than the reference FLAC
> encoder in terms of speed, the first encode I tried with it ended up
> larger than with the reference encoder, at all compression levels.
> The compression levels in Flake go up to 11, but past 9 or 10 there is
> no guarantee of full compatibility for playback.
The whole picture is a bit inconsistent. If Flake is only an
encoder, and compression levels above 8 are not guaranteed to be
compatible, then what's the purpose? If Flake cannot decode, then
what good is it to create a file that no other decoder can handle?
>> Many tools run the
>> command-line flac utility behind the scenes. Others use the FLAC
>> library directly.
> About a month ago I was setting up FLAC support for a friend on a
> Windows PC. Almost every GUI front end (based on the latest available
> download) that I tried was using an out of date version of the FLAC
> binary or library, and had the default compression set to -6 or lower.
> There is no excuse for not cranking up the compression level on any
> modern computer: surely you want to get the files as small as
Based on similar experiences, I refuse to use anything but the
official FLAC command-line for all of my work. The GUI front ends
sometimes look convenient, but I don't trust the quality. Besides,
many of the GUI front ends are actually quite horrible from a UI
perspective, so they seem to have no redeeming qualities.
>> I doubt there would be any professional
>> interest in changing things just for the sake of change or "newness."
> The only "new" thing I want in FLAC is a fix for a minor bug in the
> the command line tool treats the end of line. If long filenames
> push the
> "percent complete" past the screen width and you are encoding or
> a lot of files, you can end up with the longer file names having 20 or
> more lines on the screen output, and scrolling the previous files off
> the screen. My workaround is to use a longer scrollback in whatever
> terminal I'm using, or use GNU Screen to get scrollback on a text
Ok, despite the fact that I said FLAC should not be changed, I
actually agree with you that the command-line could use some
improvements and bug fixes. Every time I see the long filenames
issue, I worry that there is a problem, until I remember that this is
a known issue and just ignore it.
One of my goals would be to add support for the Apple CAF format.
This would actually serve a very important need. My FLAC recorder can
create files that are up to 4 GB compressed, which is literally too
large when uncompressed to WAV or AIFF. Usually, I'm dealing with
long recordings of multiple performances, so I can just tell FLAC to
grab the first hour, or the last hour, and that's small enough to fit
within the 2 GB or 4 GB limit. In contrast, CAF has no limit on file
length, so I could theoretically uncompressed a 4 GB FLAC into a 9 GB
CAF without any problem.
I can't decide whether FLAC-to-CAF (and CAF-to-FLAC) should be
developed into a new program based on the FLAC library, perhaps with
a GUI, or if it should be incorporated into the standard flac command-
line tool. At the very least, if I ever get this working standalone,
I would eventually want to roll the feature into the flac command-
line for others to use.
Anyway, the flac command-line should be improved, even though the
file format and library are probably just fine being left alone.
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