--- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'advocacy-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. From daniel at mondodesigno.com Wed Oct 15 02:55:02 2003 From: daniel at mondodesigno.com (Daniel James) Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:14 2004 Subject: [advocacy] Oh, no, logos again. In-Reply-To: <3F8D1542.8000401@marevalo.net> Message-ID: <200310151055.02056.daniel@mondodesigno.com> > Ogg letter are actually drawed not from any font (that's why they > are so ugly). Don't be so hard on yourself! It's a start, and you've flagged an important stumbling block for Ogg recognition. Cheers Daniel --- >8 ---- List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'advocacy-request@xiph.org' containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. From marevalo at marevalo.net Wed Oct 15 03:09:05 2003 From: marevalo at marevalo.net (Miguel A. Arévalo) Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:14 2004 Subject: [advocacy] Oh, no, logos again. In-Reply-To: <200310151055.02056.daniel@mondodesigno.com> Message-ID: <3F8D1CC1.6020805@marevalo.net> Well, I'm not a designer that's why I respect their work (in particular the Fish and Thor designer) and bash my logos ;-) But ... I couldn't resist your good coments and try to make "g"s more clear and play a little with the different radius and make the whole logo less square. You can see the results on the modified versions of the OffVorbis logo: http://www.marevalo.net/OggLogos/OggVorbis.png http://www.marevalo.net/OggLogos/OggVorbis.svg and on the first page of the PDF and OpenOffice Draw document. BTW, I'm using OpenOffice to draw the logos, the rest are "exports" that will probably have some little errors. Regards. Daniel James wrote: >>Ogg letter are actually drawed not from any font (that's why they >>are so ugly). > > > Don't be so hard on yourself! It's a start, and you've flagged an > important stumbling block for Ogg recognition. > > Cheers > > Daniel > --- >8 ---- > List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/ > To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'advocacy-request@xiph.org' > containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed. > Unsubscribe messages sent to the list will be ignored/filtered. >
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From daniel at mondodesigno.com Wed Oct 15 03:18:21 2003
From: daniel at mondodesigno.com (Daniel James)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:14 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Oh, no, logos again.
In-Reply-To: <3F8D1542.8000401@marevalo.net>
Message-ID: <200310151118.21200.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
Here's a possible Ogg 'brand' for products. Uses two fonts that come
with the Gimp, so I assume they are redistributable. If something
like this was to be officially adopted, it could easily be redone in
vector artwork.
(If the mailing list mangles the attachment, please ask me to mail you
this file direct if you are interested.)
I know the Xiph.org team have said time and time again that they want
to stick with the fish, thor etc - but when it comes to hardware
branding, I really do believe that some urgent action is required to
get Ogg before the public. A simple logo that everyone can use is
part of that.
Cheers
Daniel
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From daniel at mondodesigno.com Wed Oct 15 03:26:28 2003
From: daniel at mondodesigno.com (Daniel James)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:14 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Oh, no, logos again.
In-Reply-To: <3F8D1CC1.6020805@marevalo.net>
Message-ID: <200310151126.28715.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
> I couldn't resist your good coments and try to make "g"s more
> clear and play a little with the different radius and make the
> whole logo less square.
That looks more like ogg now. In the version I just posted to the list
I used Blue Highway for the word 'vorbis' - have you got that on your
system? The font with the stars, used for 'ogg' is called
Independence - quite appropriate, I think!
Cheers
Daniel
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From lars-m at gmx.net Wed Oct 15 03:36:28 2003
From: lars-m at gmx.net (Lars M.)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:14 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Oh, no, logos again.
In-Reply-To: <200310151118.21200.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
Message-ID: <002601c39308$32d8b430$6301a8c0@LIDL>
Very nice!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel James" > Here's a possible Ogg 'brand' for products. Uses two fonts that come
> with the Gimp, so I assume they are redistributable. If something
> like this was to be officially adopted, it could easily be redone in
> vector artwork.
>
> (If the mailing list mangles the attachment, please ask me to mail you
> this file direct if you are interested.)
>
> I know the Xiph.org team have said time and time again that they want
> to stick with the fish, thor etc - but when it comes to hardware
> branding, I really do believe that some urgent action is required to
> get Ogg before the public. A simple logo that everyone can use is
> part of that.
>
> Cheers
>
> Daniel
--- >8 ----
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From daniel at mondodesigno.com Thu Oct 16 06:50:57 2003
From: daniel at mondodesigno.com (Daniel James)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:14 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Re: Mailing list removal
In-Reply-To: <20031016112435.GJ1684@desk06.is.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200310161450.57782.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
> As most of you can probably tell, we simply don't have the time
> to do any ogg-related work these days, which is unfortunate.
Hi Jonathan,
Is what you mean that BBC management aren't allocating resources for
you to be able to develop ogg/icecast services? If so, that's a
shame, because not only will licence payers money be wasted on
proprietary software that could have been spent on programme making,
but it will also allow commercial broadcasters (like Virgin) to gain
competitive and technical advantage.
Personally, I'm far more likely to listen to a station that runs an
Icecast stream rather than RealAudio because I get better sound
quality and much less dropped connections. I hope that soon we'll
have a standalone, BBC branded cross-platform audio player with Ogg
support - I'd be using it all the time. Especially if it has
integration with the Listen Again service and a big red button to
take you straight to John Peel's Radio 1 show!
Cheers
Daniel
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From marevalo at marevalo.net Thu Oct 16 10:46:17 2003
From: marevalo at marevalo.net (Miguel A. Arévalo)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:14 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Ogg & Ogg Vorbis _unofficial_ logos page.
In-Reply-To: <3F8C813D.6050706@marevalo.net>
Message-ID: <3F8ED969.5060105@marevalo.net>
Hi all,
I've just set up a web page with my functional, yet very ugly and _very
unofficial_ set of logos for Ogg, Ogg Vorbis and family.
http://www.marevalo.net/OggLogos
They have been desinged with the classic CD and DVD corporate logos in mind.
If someone has any problem with them or the web page please contact me.
Miguel A. Arévalo
marevalo@marevalo.net
Miguel A. Arévalo wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> first of all I'm sorry about rising this subject again (and for my
> spanglish), but as hardware support for Ogg Vorbis files start to appear
> it hurt my eyes seeing things like this
>
> http://www.marevalo.net/OggLogos/iriver_ihp120.jpg
>
> on their packaging, so I think there should be a (possibly new) SET of
> logos and a clear policy for using them as "official" logos for the
> entire set of technologies and for every codec.
>
> So here I go with my own proposal, you can find a whole set of logos in
> different formats on:
>
> http://www.marevalo.net/OggLogos/
>
> Those logos are a _proof of concept_ but I like them for these reasons:
>
> - They make clear that the official file extension is .ogg
> - They can be printed easely on two colors and or hardware devices.
> - They try to make clear that Ogg is the fileformat and Vorbis, Theora
> and so on are kind of "properties".
> - They try to follow stablished guidelines like the Compact Disc and
> Digital Versatile Disc ones.
>
> And, why I think the current logos are not ready for mass-cosumption ?
>
> - At this moment the haven't been used cosistently (fish an thor).
> - Current logos have too many details and colors for beeing printed on
> hardware devices and/or physical media (CD, Zips and so...)
> - No graphical relationship between those logos and .ogg file extension.
> - I like them but they are too geek, like comparing FSF's gnu and Linux
> penguin (I like both).
>
> I also think there should be a policy on when can these (or any other
> "official" Ogg logos) be used so the consumer has some security on what
> is he buying in repect of support of any Ogg format, telling what points
> of the different specifications and codecs must support the hardware
> device (or software program) in order to show them in the packaging
> and/or device itself. Just like these:
>
> http://www.gnscd.com/cdlogo.htm
>
> Ok, I've said it all, comments ?
>
> Miguel A. Arévalo
>
> --- >8 ----
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>
>
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From daniel at mondodesigno.com Fri Oct 17 01:36:37 2003
From: daniel at mondodesigno.com (Daniel James)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:14 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Ogg & Ogg Vorbis _unofficial_ logos page.
In-Reply-To: <3F8ED969.5060105@marevalo.net>
Message-ID: <200310170936.37920.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
> I've just set up a web page with my functional, yet very ugly and
> _very unofficial_ set of logos for Ogg, Ogg Vorbis and family.
Could you put my idea up there too? Maybe we could have a logo
competition!
I'd really like to hear an official response on this subject from
Xiph.org. I respect the technical abilities of the Ogg developers,
but when it comes to hardware branding neither the fish or the thor
logos are adequate. I think the input of some experienced graphic
designers and/or marketing people is needed, as it would be a shame
for Ogg support to go unrecognised over such a simple issue.
Why do you think iRiver created their own logo for Vorbis support?
Because the existing logos just don't work, and are far too expensive
to print on the case of a hardware device. If you don't tackle this
issue, you'll either get a variety of non-standard logos appearing,
or more likely you won't see Ogg on hardware or packaging at all.
There's no reason why the fish can't be retained as the logo of
Xiph.org or whatever. But please, look beyond your personal
attachment to the old logos and think about the bigger picture.
Cheers
Daniel
--- >8 ----
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From marevalo at marevalo.net Fri Oct 17 02:05:36 2003
From: marevalo at marevalo.net (Miguel A. Arévalo)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:14 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Ogg & Ogg Vorbis _unofficial_ logos page.
In-Reply-To: <200310170936.37920.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
Message-ID: <3F8FB0E0.5060508@marevalo.net>
Done,
anybody can send me his logo and I promise to publish it on my page
without any previous censorship.
Thanks.
P.S. I used OpenOffice Draw because Sodipodi does no yet support grids
which I need badly for my designs (I have some AutoCAD backgroup and I
am a very technical guy, apart from that I love Sodipodi and in fact the
SVG on my site has been retouched with it).
By the way I recommend all the open music "aficionados" to visit
http://www.magnatune.com as it can be the "record company" that matches
the views of the Ogg and Xiph followers, oh, yes, great music too!! Just
bought a couple of albums on perfect FLAC format.
Daniel James wrote:
>>I've just set up a web page with my functional, yet very ugly and
>>_very unofficial_ set of logos for Ogg, Ogg Vorbis and family.
>
>
> Could you put my idea up there too? Maybe we could have a logo
> competition!
>
> I'd really like to hear an official response on this subject from
> Xiph.org. I respect the technical abilities of the Ogg developers,
> but when it comes to hardware branding neither the fish or the thor
> logos are adequate. I think the input of some experienced graphic
> designers and/or marketing people is needed, as it would be a shame
> for Ogg support to go unrecognised over such a simple issue.
>
> Why do you think iRiver created their own logo for Vorbis support?
> Because the existing logos just don't work, and are far too expensive
> to print on the case of a hardware device. If you don't tackle this
> issue, you'll either get a variety of non-standard logos appearing,
> or more likely you won't see Ogg on hardware or packaging at all.
>
> There's no reason why the fish can't be retained as the logo of
> Xiph.org or whatever. But please, look beyond your personal
> attachment to the old logos and think about the bigger picture.
>
> Cheers
>
> Daniel
> --- >8 ----
> List archives: http://www.xiph.org/archives/
> To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'advocacy-request@xiph.org'
> containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed.
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>
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From jack at xiph.org Fri Oct 17 07:34:41 2003
From: jack at xiph.org (Jack Moffitt)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:14 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Ogg & Ogg Vorbis _unofficial_ logos page.
In-Reply-To: <200310170936.37920.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
Message-ID: <20031017143441.GB16397@i.cantcode.com>
> Could you put my idea up there too? Maybe we could have a logo
> competition!
We don't have anyone here good enough to compete at a level where we'd
accept the logos. At least judging from past experience.
> I'd really like to hear an official response on this subject from
> Xiph.org. I respect the technical abilities of the Ogg developers,
> but when it comes to hardware branding neither the fish or the thor
> logos are adequate. I think the input of some experienced graphic
> designers and/or marketing people is needed, as it would be a shame
> for Ogg support to go unrecognised over such a simple issue.
We wholeheartedly agree, and have said so many times. We need the help
of experienced people. To my knowledge, accepting random logos from
hackers doesn't qualify for this either.
> Why do you think iRiver created their own logo for Vorbis support?
Because they didn't know what else to use. It is not as if they asked
us and we said no. We had only sporadic contact with them.
> Because the existing logos just don't work, and are far too expensive
> to print on the case of a hardware device.
The fish logo looks fine in black and white. They are already doing
fullcolor stuff on the rest of the box. I don't believe that the logos
are done separately, and probably don't cost any more regardless of the
number of colors. Note that the IOmega HipZip firmware had the Ogg logo
on its black and white lcd when you looked at the about screen.
> If you don't tackle this
> issue, you'll either get a variety of non-standard logos appearing,
> or more likely you won't see Ogg on hardware or packaging at all.
We see both happening already, and some people using the fish. Most
people use the fish.
> There's no reason why the fish can't be retained as the logo of
> Xiph.org or whatever. But please, look beyond your personal
> attachment to the old logos and think about the bigger picture.
We all like the fish, but only Monty is attached to anything else. I'm
happy to make specialized branding stuff all day long, but until there
is someone talented at logo work to step up to the plate, we'll do with
what we have.
This is no offense to any past or present logo-drawing people. Logos
are quite difficult, and we are very picky. The only logos we've seen
so far that we all thought were good enough to continue with were those
drawn by Sheryl, and even those we felt needed some work and still
haven't been completed.
jack.
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From daniel at mondodesigno.com Fri Oct 17 08:20:49 2003
From: daniel at mondodesigno.com (Daniel James)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:14 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Ogg & Ogg Vorbis _unofficial_ logos page.
In-Reply-To: <20031017143441.GB16397@i.cantcode.com>
Message-ID: <200310171620.49452.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
> We don't have anyone here good enough to compete at a level where
> we'd accept the logos.
Maybe you need to invite more entries then - put out an announcement
for an official competition with a prize. Look at the quality design
going into desktop themes - the talent is out there.
> We need the help of experienced people. To my knowledge, accepting
> random logos from hackers doesn't qualify for this either.
You've got we wrong there - I do have some background in design, but I
don't qualify as a hacker. I'm just a user. Secondly, neither effort
was random - they were trying to address an identified problem.
> > Why do you think iRiver created their own logo for Vorbis
> > support?
>
> Because they didn't know what else to use.
Exactly.
> The fish logo looks fine in black and white.
For someone selling fish, sure.
> I don't believe that
> the logos are done separately
I meant they would all be screen-printed or whatever at the same time,
so you can't supply a detailed four-colour logo when everyone else is
using simple black logos.
> and probably don't cost any more
> regardless of the number of colors.
I can tell you're not a print buyer.... If the rest of the graphics,
eg on the packaging, were colour then it wouldn't cost extra. But on
the actual hardware it certainly would. You'll rarely see printing on
a hardware device in more than one or two colours, unless it's a
sticker.
Think of a good logo as being a bit like a well-mastered piece of
audio. It should work at all sizes and in all situations - and get
across what you're trying to say.
> I'm happy to make specialized branding stuff all day long, but
> until there is someone talented at logo work to step up to the
> plate, we'll do with what we have.
That sounds like a challenge to me!
Cheers
Daniel
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From jack at xiph.org Fri Oct 17 08:49:45 2003
From: jack at xiph.org (Jack Moffitt)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:14 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Ogg & Ogg Vorbis _unofficial_ logos page.
In-Reply-To: <200310171620.49452.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
Message-ID: <20031017154945.GH16397@i.cantcode.com>
> > I'm happy to make specialized branding stuff all day long, but
> > until there is someone talented at logo work to step up to the
> > plate, we'll do with what we have.
>
> That sounds like a challenge to me!
I invite all who want to try and create something better. But you have
to be willing to work with us. If we hired a branding team, we wouldn't
just be handed one logo, we'd get several ideas, several variations, and
our input would help shape the refined versions until we had something
we felt was perfect.
I suggest coming up with a few different ideas and then presenting them
formally at one of the monthly meetings.
jack.
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From daniel at mondodesigno.com Fri Oct 17 09:02:49 2003
From: daniel at mondodesigno.com (Daniel James)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:14 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Ogg & Ogg Vorbis _unofficial_ logos page.
In-Reply-To: <20031017154945.GH16397@i.cantcode.com>
Message-ID: <200310171702.49378.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
> I invite all who want to try and create something better.
Glad to hear it. I'll put something together.
> But you
> have to be willing to work with us.
Of course.
> If we hired a branding team,
> we wouldn't just be handed one logo, we'd get several ideas,
> several variations, and our input would help shape the refined
> versions until we had something we felt was perfect.
Sure, although in this case you will be working with volunteers, not a
very expensive consultancy. I suspect different ideas will come from
different individuals, and from there you can refine the favourites.
> I suggest coming up with a few different ideas and then presenting
> them formally at one of the monthly meetings.
OK - when would that be, as a deadline for the initial phase? I
propose SVG format for all entries, unless anyone can think of a
reason why not. When a final design had been chosen, you'd probably
have to supply an EPS file that could be used on a Mac or Windows to
the manufacturers.
Cheers
Daniel
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From marevalo at marevalo.net Fri Oct 17 09:20:21 2003
From: marevalo at marevalo.net (Miguel A. Arévalo)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:14 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Ogg & Ogg Vorbis _unofficial_ logos page.
In-Reply-To: <20031017143441.GB16397@i.cantcode.com>
Message-ID: <3F9016C5.3060705@marevalo.net>
Jack Moffitt wrote:
> We don't have anyone here good enough to compete at a level where we'd
> accept the logos. At least judging from past experience.
A properly announced contest (even only in Slashdot) will give you a big
audience with a good share of designers. There has been very good ones
at the wikepedia's contest.
> The fish logo looks fine in black and white. They are already doing
> fullcolor stuff on the rest of the box.
I'm sorry but as you can see:
http://www.mrmoogle.de/gallery/view_photo.php?full=1&set_albumName=iHP-120-Review&id=iriver_ihp120rev_img_19b
the whole box is only in shades of gray, they prefer spending money on
good earbuds and digital in/out that in flashy boxes.
> We see both happening already, and some people using the fish. Most
> people use the fish.
Which is an error, the fish is the logo of the Xiph.org Foundation. But,
then again, neither the fish nor the thor-and-snake tells anything about
Ogg nor Vorbis, they are far too eclectic and elaborated.
> I suggest coming up with a few different ideas and then presenting them
> formally at one of the monthly meetings.
Oh! friend, this remembers me the "good old days" of the ITU-T, come on
boys, we are in a post-"Cathedral and Bazaar" world, there should be
more flexible ways to do simple things...
Regards,
Miguel A. Arévalo
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From victor at ripal.co.il Fri Oct 17 10:31:10 2003
From: victor at ripal.co.il (Victor Marks)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:14 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Ogg & Ogg Vorbis _unofficial_ logos page.
In-Reply-To: <3F9016C5.3060705@marevalo.net>
Message-ID: --- >8 ----
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From daniel Wed Oct 15 02:55:02 2003
From: daniel (Daniel James)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:21 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Oh, no, logos again.
In-Reply-To: <3F8D1542.8000401@marevalo.net>
Message-ID: <200310151055.02056.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
> Ogg letter are actually drawed not from any font (that's why they
> are so ugly).
Don't be so hard on yourself! It's a start, and you've flagged an
important stumbling block for Ogg recognition.
Cheers
Daniel
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From marevalo Wed Oct 15 03:09:05 2003
From: marevalo (Miguel A. Arévalo)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:21 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Oh, no, logos again.
In-Reply-To: <200310151055.02056.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
Message-ID: <3F8D1CC1.6020805@marevalo.net>
Well, I'm not a designer that's why I respect their work (in particular
the Fish and Thor designer) and bash my logos ;-)
But ... I couldn't resist your good coments and try to make "g"s more
clear and play a little with the different radius and make the whole
logo less square.
You can see the results on the modified versions of the OffVorbis logo:
http://www.marevalo.net/OggLogos/OggVorbis.png
http://www.marevalo.net/OggLogos/OggVorbis.svg
and on the first page of the PDF and OpenOffice Draw document.
BTW, I'm using OpenOffice to draw the logos, the rest are "exports" that
will probably have some little errors.
Regards.
Daniel James wrote:
>>Ogg letter are actually drawed not from any font (that's why they
>>are so ugly).
>
>
> Don't be so hard on yourself! It's a start, and you've flagged an
> important stumbling block for Ogg recognition.
>
> Cheers
>
> Daniel
> --- >8 ----
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From daniel Wed Oct 15 03:18:21 2003
From: daniel (Daniel James)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:21 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Oh, no, logos again.
In-Reply-To: <3F8D1542.8000401@marevalo.net>
Message-ID: <200310151118.21200.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
Here's a possible Ogg 'brand' for products. Uses two fonts that come
with the Gimp, so I assume they are redistributable. If something
like this was to be officially adopted, it could easily be redone in
vector artwork.
(If the mailing list mangles the attachment, please ask me to mail you
this file direct if you are interested.)
I know the Xiph.org team have said time and time again that they want
to stick with the fish, thor etc - but when it comes to hardware
branding, I really do believe that some urgent action is required to
get Ogg before the public. A simple logo that everyone can use is
part of that.
Cheers
Daniel
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From daniel Wed Oct 15 03:26:28 2003
From: daniel (Daniel James)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:21 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Oh, no, logos again.
In-Reply-To: <3F8D1CC1.6020805@marevalo.net>
Message-ID: <200310151126.28715.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
> I couldn't resist your good coments and try to make "g"s more
> clear and play a little with the different radius and make the
> whole logo less square.
That looks more like ogg now. In the version I just posted to the list
I used Blue Highway for the word 'vorbis' - have you got that on your
system? The font with the stars, used for 'ogg' is called
Independence - quite appropriate, I think!
Cheers
Daniel
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From lars-m Wed Oct 15 03:36:28 2003
From: lars-m (Lars M.)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:21 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Oh, no, logos again.
In-Reply-To: <200310151118.21200.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
Message-ID: <002601c39308$32d8b430$6301a8c0@LIDL>
Very nice!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Daniel James" > Here's a possible Ogg 'brand' for products. Uses two fonts that come
> with the Gimp, so I assume they are redistributable. If something
> like this was to be officially adopted, it could easily be redone in
> vector artwork.
>
> (If the mailing list mangles the attachment, please ask me to mail you
> this file direct if you are interested.)
>
> I know the Xiph.org team have said time and time again that they want
> to stick with the fish, thor etc - but when it comes to hardware
> branding, I really do believe that some urgent action is required to
> get Ogg before the public. A simple logo that everyone can use is
> part of that.
>
> Cheers
>
> Daniel
--- >8 ----
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From daniel Thu Oct 16 06:50:57 2003
From: daniel (Daniel James)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:21 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Re: Mailing list removal
In-Reply-To: <20031016112435.GJ1684@desk06.is.bbc.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200310161450.57782.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
> As most of you can probably tell, we simply don't have the time
> to do any ogg-related work these days, which is unfortunate.
Hi Jonathan,
Is what you mean that BBC management aren't allocating resources for
you to be able to develop ogg/icecast services? If so, that's a
shame, because not only will licence payers money be wasted on
proprietary software that could have been spent on programme making,
but it will also allow commercial broadcasters (like Virgin) to gain
competitive and technical advantage.
Personally, I'm far more likely to listen to a station that runs an
Icecast stream rather than RealAudio because I get better sound
quality and much less dropped connections. I hope that soon we'll
have a standalone, BBC branded cross-platform audio player with Ogg
support - I'd be using it all the time. Especially if it has
integration with the Listen Again service and a big red button to
take you straight to John Peel's Radio 1 show!
Cheers
Daniel
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From marevalo Thu Oct 16 10:46:17 2003
From: marevalo (Miguel A. Arévalo)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:21 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Ogg & Ogg Vorbis _unofficial_ logos page.
In-Reply-To: <3F8C813D.6050706@marevalo.net>
Message-ID: <3F8ED969.5060105@marevalo.net>
Hi all,
I've just set up a web page with my functional, yet very ugly and _very
unofficial_ set of logos for Ogg, Ogg Vorbis and family.
http://www.marevalo.net/OggLogos
They have been desinged with the classic CD and DVD corporate logos in mind.
If someone has any problem with them or the web page please contact me.
Miguel A. Arévalo
marevalo@marevalo.net
Miguel A. Arévalo wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> first of all I'm sorry about rising this subject again (and for my
> spanglish), but as hardware support for Ogg Vorbis files start to appear
> it hurt my eyes seeing things like this
>
> http://www.marevalo.net/OggLogos/iriver_ihp120.jpg
>
> on their packaging, so I think there should be a (possibly new) SET of
> logos and a clear policy for using them as "official" logos for the
> entire set of technologies and for every codec.
>
> So here I go with my own proposal, you can find a whole set of logos in
> different formats on:
>
> http://www.marevalo.net/OggLogos/
>
> Those logos are a _proof of concept_ but I like them for these reasons:
>
> - They make clear that the official file extension is .ogg
> - They can be printed easely on two colors and or hardware devices.
> - They try to make clear that Ogg is the fileformat and Vorbis, Theora
> and so on are kind of "properties".
> - They try to follow stablished guidelines like the Compact Disc and
> Digital Versatile Disc ones.
>
> And, why I think the current logos are not ready for mass-cosumption ?
>
> - At this moment the haven't been used cosistently (fish an thor).
> - Current logos have too many details and colors for beeing printed on
> hardware devices and/or physical media (CD, Zips and so...)
> - No graphical relationship between those logos and .ogg file extension.
> - I like them but they are too geek, like comparing FSF's gnu and Linux
> penguin (I like both).
>
> I also think there should be a policy on when can these (or any other
> "official" Ogg logos) be used so the consumer has some security on what
> is he buying in repect of support of any Ogg format, telling what points
> of the different specifications and codecs must support the hardware
> device (or software program) in order to show them in the packaging
> and/or device itself. Just like these:
>
> http://www.gnscd.com/cdlogo.htm
>
> Ok, I've said it all, comments ?
>
> Miguel A. Arévalo
>
> --- >8 ----
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From daniel Fri Oct 17 01:36:37 2003
From: daniel (Daniel James)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:21 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Ogg & Ogg Vorbis _unofficial_ logos page.
In-Reply-To: <3F8ED969.5060105@marevalo.net>
Message-ID: <200310170936.37920.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
> I've just set up a web page with my functional, yet very ugly and
> _very unofficial_ set of logos for Ogg, Ogg Vorbis and family.
Could you put my idea up there too? Maybe we could have a logo
competition!
I'd really like to hear an official response on this subject from
Xiph.org. I respect the technical abilities of the Ogg developers,
but when it comes to hardware branding neither the fish or the thor
logos are adequate. I think the input of some experienced graphic
designers and/or marketing people is needed, as it would be a shame
for Ogg support to go unrecognised over such a simple issue.
Why do you think iRiver created their own logo for Vorbis support?
Because the existing logos just don't work, and are far too expensive
to print on the case of a hardware device. If you don't tackle this
issue, you'll either get a variety of non-standard logos appearing,
or more likely you won't see Ogg on hardware or packaging at all.
There's no reason why the fish can't be retained as the logo of
Xiph.org or whatever. But please, look beyond your personal
attachment to the old logos and think about the bigger picture.
Cheers
Daniel
--- >8 ----
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From marevalo Fri Oct 17 02:05:36 2003
From: marevalo (Miguel A. Arévalo)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:21 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Ogg & Ogg Vorbis _unofficial_ logos page.
In-Reply-To: <200310170936.37920.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
Message-ID: <3F8FB0E0.5060508@marevalo.net>
Done,
anybody can send me his logo and I promise to publish it on my page
without any previous censorship.
Thanks.
P.S. I used OpenOffice Draw because Sodipodi does no yet support grids
which I need badly for my designs (I have some AutoCAD backgroup and I
am a very technical guy, apart from that I love Sodipodi and in fact the
SVG on my site has been retouched with it).
By the way I recommend all the open music "aficionados" to visit
http://www.magnatune.com as it can be the "record company" that matches
the views of the Ogg and Xiph followers, oh, yes, great music too!! Just
bought a couple of albums on perfect FLAC format.
Daniel James wrote:
>>I've just set up a web page with my functional, yet very ugly and
>>_very unofficial_ set of logos for Ogg, Ogg Vorbis and family.
>
>
> Could you put my idea up there too? Maybe we could have a logo
> competition!
>
> I'd really like to hear an official response on this subject from
> Xiph.org. I respect the technical abilities of the Ogg developers,
> but when it comes to hardware branding neither the fish or the thor
> logos are adequate. I think the input of some experienced graphic
> designers and/or marketing people is needed, as it would be a shame
> for Ogg support to go unrecognised over such a simple issue.
>
> Why do you think iRiver created their own logo for Vorbis support?
> Because the existing logos just don't work, and are far too expensive
> to print on the case of a hardware device. If you don't tackle this
> issue, you'll either get a variety of non-standard logos appearing,
> or more likely you won't see Ogg on hardware or packaging at all.
>
> There's no reason why the fish can't be retained as the logo of
> Xiph.org or whatever. But please, look beyond your personal
> attachment to the old logos and think about the bigger picture.
>
> Cheers
>
> Daniel
> --- >8 ----
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> To unsubscribe from this list, send a message to 'advocacy-request@xiph.org'
> containing only the word 'unsubscribe' in the body. No subject is needed.
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>
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From jack Fri Oct 17 07:34:41 2003
From: jack (Jack Moffitt)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:21 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Ogg & Ogg Vorbis _unofficial_ logos page.
In-Reply-To: <200310170936.37920.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
Message-ID: <20031017143441.GB16397@i.cantcode.com>
> Could you put my idea up there too? Maybe we could have a logo
> competition!
We don't have anyone here good enough to compete at a level where we'd
accept the logos. At least judging from past experience.
> I'd really like to hear an official response on this subject from
> Xiph.org. I respect the technical abilities of the Ogg developers,
> but when it comes to hardware branding neither the fish or the thor
> logos are adequate. I think the input of some experienced graphic
> designers and/or marketing people is needed, as it would be a shame
> for Ogg support to go unrecognised over such a simple issue.
We wholeheartedly agree, and have said so many times. We need the help
of experienced people. To my knowledge, accepting random logos from
hackers doesn't qualify for this either.
> Why do you think iRiver created their own logo for Vorbis support?
Because they didn't know what else to use. It is not as if they asked
us and we said no. We had only sporadic contact with them.
> Because the existing logos just don't work, and are far too expensive
> to print on the case of a hardware device.
The fish logo looks fine in black and white. They are already doing
fullcolor stuff on the rest of the box. I don't believe that the logos
are done separately, and probably don't cost any more regardless of the
number of colors. Note that the IOmega HipZip firmware had the Ogg logo
on its black and white lcd when you looked at the about screen.
> If you don't tackle this
> issue, you'll either get a variety of non-standard logos appearing,
> or more likely you won't see Ogg on hardware or packaging at all.
We see both happening already, and some people using the fish. Most
people use the fish.
> There's no reason why the fish can't be retained as the logo of
> Xiph.org or whatever. But please, look beyond your personal
> attachment to the old logos and think about the bigger picture.
We all like the fish, but only Monty is attached to anything else. I'm
happy to make specialized branding stuff all day long, but until there
is someone talented at logo work to step up to the plate, we'll do with
what we have.
This is no offense to any past or present logo-drawing people. Logos
are quite difficult, and we are very picky. The only logos we've seen
so far that we all thought were good enough to continue with were those
drawn by Sheryl, and even those we felt needed some work and still
haven't been completed.
jack.
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From daniel Fri Oct 17 08:20:49 2003
From: daniel (Daniel James)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:21 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Ogg & Ogg Vorbis _unofficial_ logos page.
In-Reply-To: <20031017143441.GB16397@i.cantcode.com>
Message-ID: <200310171620.49452.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
> We don't have anyone here good enough to compete at a level where
> we'd accept the logos.
Maybe you need to invite more entries then - put out an announcement
for an official competition with a prize. Look at the quality design
going into desktop themes - the talent is out there.
> We need the help of experienced people. To my knowledge, accepting
> random logos from hackers doesn't qualify for this either.
You've got we wrong there - I do have some background in design, but I
don't qualify as a hacker. I'm just a user. Secondly, neither effort
was random - they were trying to address an identified problem.
> > Why do you think iRiver created their own logo for Vorbis
> > support?
>
> Because they didn't know what else to use.
Exactly.
> The fish logo looks fine in black and white.
For someone selling fish, sure.
> I don't believe that
> the logos are done separately
I meant they would all be screen-printed or whatever at the same time,
so you can't supply a detailed four-colour logo when everyone else is
using simple black logos.
> and probably don't cost any more
> regardless of the number of colors.
I can tell you're not a print buyer.... If the rest of the graphics,
eg on the packaging, were colour then it wouldn't cost extra. But on
the actual hardware it certainly would. You'll rarely see printing on
a hardware device in more than one or two colours, unless it's a
sticker.
Think of a good logo as being a bit like a well-mastered piece of
audio. It should work at all sizes and in all situations - and get
across what you're trying to say.
> I'm happy to make specialized branding stuff all day long, but
> until there is someone talented at logo work to step up to the
> plate, we'll do with what we have.
That sounds like a challenge to me!
Cheers
Daniel
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From jack Fri Oct 17 08:49:45 2003
From: jack (Jack Moffitt)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:21 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Ogg & Ogg Vorbis _unofficial_ logos page.
In-Reply-To: <200310171620.49452.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
Message-ID: <20031017154945.GH16397@i.cantcode.com>
> > I'm happy to make specialized branding stuff all day long, but
> > until there is someone talented at logo work to step up to the
> > plate, we'll do with what we have.
>
> That sounds like a challenge to me!
I invite all who want to try and create something better. But you have
to be willing to work with us. If we hired a branding team, we wouldn't
just be handed one logo, we'd get several ideas, several variations, and
our input would help shape the refined versions until we had something
we felt was perfect.
I suggest coming up with a few different ideas and then presenting them
formally at one of the monthly meetings.
jack.
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From daniel Fri Oct 17 09:02:49 2003
From: daniel (Daniel James)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:21 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Ogg & Ogg Vorbis _unofficial_ logos page.
In-Reply-To: <20031017154945.GH16397@i.cantcode.com>
Message-ID: <200310171702.49378.daniel@mondodesigno.com>
> I invite all who want to try and create something better.
Glad to hear it. I'll put something together.
> But you
> have to be willing to work with us.
Of course.
> If we hired a branding team,
> we wouldn't just be handed one logo, we'd get several ideas,
> several variations, and our input would help shape the refined
> versions until we had something we felt was perfect.
Sure, although in this case you will be working with volunteers, not a
very expensive consultancy. I suspect different ideas will come from
different individuals, and from there you can refine the favourites.
> I suggest coming up with a few different ideas and then presenting
> them formally at one of the monthly meetings.
OK - when would that be, as a deadline for the initial phase? I
propose SVG format for all entries, unless anyone can think of a
reason why not. When a final design had been chosen, you'd probably
have to supply an EPS file that could be used on a Mac or Windows to
the manufacturers.
Cheers
Daniel
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From marevalo Fri Oct 17 09:20:21 2003
From: marevalo (Miguel A. Arévalo)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:21 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Ogg & Ogg Vorbis _unofficial_ logos page.
In-Reply-To: <20031017143441.GB16397@i.cantcode.com>
Message-ID: <3F9016C5.3060705@marevalo.net>
Jack Moffitt wrote:
> We don't have anyone here good enough to compete at a level where we'd
> accept the logos. At least judging from past experience.
A properly announced contest (even only in Slashdot) will give you a big
audience with a good share of designers. There has been very good ones
at the wikepedia's contest.
> The fish logo looks fine in black and white. They are already doing
> fullcolor stuff on the rest of the box.
I'm sorry but as you can see:
http://www.mrmoogle.de/gallery/view_photo.php?full=1&set_albumName=iHP-120-Review&id=iriver_ihp120rev_img_19b
the whole box is only in shades of gray, they prefer spending money on
good earbuds and digital in/out that in flashy boxes.
> We see both happening already, and some people using the fish. Most
> people use the fish.
Which is an error, the fish is the logo of the Xiph.org Foundation. But,
then again, neither the fish nor the thor-and-snake tells anything about
Ogg nor Vorbis, they are far too eclectic and elaborated.
> I suggest coming up with a few different ideas and then presenting them
> formally at one of the monthly meetings.
Oh! friend, this remembers me the "good old days" of the ITU-T, come on
boys, we are in a post-"Cathedral and Bazaar" world, there should be
more flexible ways to do simple things...
Regards,
Miguel A. Arévalo
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From victor Fri Oct 17 10:31:10 2003
From: victor (Victor Marks)
Date: Fri Aug 6 13:11:21 2004
Subject: [advocacy] Ogg & Ogg Vorbis _unofficial_ logos page.
In-Reply-To: <3F9016C5.3060705@marevalo.net>
Message-ID: